To ask what you think of SAHMs?

[HarryHarryHarry]

For the past 3 years I have been a SAHM. I never imagined that I would be one but I actually quite like it. Eventually I plan to go back to work but it could be that I just work unskilled-type jobs instead of having a proper career. I really don’t know what my options will be when the time comes. I might just stay home and focus on my writing, which is my real passion, or I might go back to university and retrain in something. (We are lucky that we can currently afford to get by on just one parent’s wages). Recently though I have been wondering what my children will think of me when they’re older. Especially my daughter. Am I a bad example to her?

If your mum was a SAHM, did you have any thoughts about that?

@Holyrivolli

A basic level of education is essential for everyone to engage with the world and learning should be lifelong but spending x years and x thousands of pounds doing a degree in a specialised subject to then chuck it all away to run after your kids and play full time housekeeper is a waste.

I am surprised that someone with an education thinks this way. Maybe it was wasted on you too? On my very first day of my Engineering degree - we were told - do not think getting a degree is just all about exams, if that's you then you will have a poor and limited experience - it's also about broadening your mind, gaining independence, exploring ideas, meeting a diverse range of people and enriching your lives. I value my time studying for my degree it was a transformative experience and I wish the same for my kids whether they choose to do a vocational subject or not. I am a life-long learner and I hope they will be too!

Your life must be so narrow Holy. Studying for a degree gives people so many more skills than you seem to comprehend. Its value isn't only about specific subject knowledge.
On a purely shallow level, being able to teach my own kids saved me a small fortune in private tuition costs during GCSE and A Level years.

From my limited knowledge of the working world, due to being a lowly sahp , employers seem to value the skills acquired by degree studies and don't appear to always recruit graduates whose degrees are directly connected to the job. Why would you assume that sah parents never use those skills?

Of course learning is wonderful and you can use the skills to educate your children. Most parents work AND bring up their kids. Great that you think that you haven’t wasted time and money educating yourself to the nth degree then opting to not use it in a professional setting. Other people including me will think it’s a waste and shame that all these intelligent women chose not to aim higher than just bringing up kids

Holly, I don’t like to use the word ‘ignorant’ to people, but with your comments you are sailing close to the wind.

I’ve been a SAHM for 17 years. I have a degree, an MA I completed when I was about 26 and I’ve more recently done another MA which is also a professional qualification that will enable me to work on my own terms, if and when I decide to.

As for “play full time housekeeper,” I have a cleaner for 4 hours twice a week, thanks very much.

And as an ex psychotherapist, I found my kids anything but boring. They are amazing and I’ve been privileged to not miss a thing. One is dyslexic and I’ve done training courses to help her - something I found interesting in its own right. My DS now has offers from UCL, Bath and Durham and is waiting to hear from Cambridge and LSE. This is a child certain teachers wrote off when he was 7. I can assure you, my education is not wasted and I’ve been able to support and extend my kids learning because of it. We are in London and there can be 1500 applicants for 100 places at the schools they attend. It takes effort to get them through. Sorry if that sounds like bragging, but you said what you said and I will bite back because if you think being at home is all about dusting and watching CBeebies, then that says more about you. My daughters are hardly held back or lacking in ambition - are you joking?? They are in the top girls school in the U.K. and will do whatever they want. Education will give them choices and if yet decide that’s being at home for a while - I hope that happens fir them. I will support them all the way. My DS got 10 9s at GCSE and, yes, I supported him all the way too, just as I’ve helped him now with his uni applications. The fact you have such a dim view of being with kids is your problem. Fortunately it’s not mine. And all the SAHMs I know (which is a lot) would say exactly the same. I guess you either get it or you don’t.

@Holyrivolli

Of course learning is wonderful and you can use the skills to educate your children. Most parents work AND bring up their kids. Great that you think that you haven’t wasted time and money educating yourself to the nth degree then opting to not use it in a professional setting. Other people including me will think it’s a waste and shame that all these intelligent women chose not to aim higher than just bringing up kids

Bringing up children and not being in paid employment due to this is not a waste of any part of your life. You must be lacking in a sense of self worth and self assurance to opine that spending part of your life caring for human beings you carried and gave birth to is a waste of education and skill. I would argue it is quite the opposite.

@Holyrivolli

Of course learning is wonderful and you can use the skills to educate your children. Most parents work AND bring up their kids. Great that you think that you haven’t wasted time and money educating yourself to the nth degree then opting to not use it in a professional setting. Other people including me will think it’s a waste and shame that all these intelligent women chose not to aim higher than just bringing up kids

Thanks for thinking of me - but there really is no need, it hasn't been a waste from my perspective - I value my educational experience and I hold no shame for taking time away from paid employment to bring up my kids, it suited us as a family and it suits us now for me to work. We were lucky we had options and choices, many don't.

@Holyrivolli

Of course learning is wonderful and you can use the skills to educate your children. Most parents work AND bring up their kids. Great that you think that you haven’t wasted time and money educating yourself to the nth degree then opting to not use it in a professional setting. Other people including me will think it’s a waste and shame that all these intelligent women chose not to aim higher than just bringing up kids

Sadly this attitude is characteristic of the UK’s dismissive attitude towards childcare, which has terrible consequences for the sector as a whole - so many substandard nurseries and other settings, high staff turnover and poor retention, low morale, absurdly low pay.

Do you know that in Sweden - where early years education is classed as one of the best in the world - most childcare workers average 3 years at university, and half of them have an MA? Do you think that’s a waste of their studies too? Or more likely, they actually recognise the crucial importance of early childhood brain and social development. If a parent wants to help further that, so what?

I’m also bemused by your exaggerated deference to (and reverence of) ‘professional settings’. As though all careers are equally meaningful and fulfilling.

Something that always resonates with me on these threads is talk of ‘facilitation’. For me, I would hate my life to be about facilitating other people’s but maybe that just means I’m a selfish person, I don’t know. I fully agree with the view that education can be used valuably in bringing up children but to what end-to help THEM get into good unis? To do what? For me it wouldn’t be enough for my life to be about facilitating other people which is what I think it would be as a SAHM. Of course I want to help my kids and support them in every way, same for my husband where I can, but I also need to achieve things for myself at the same time. I think that’s a key difference with (content and happy) SAHMs, not lesser intelligence but perhaps a more selfless streak. It’s a really interesting issue which I enjoy discussion and debate around, but it’s a shame it always turns into a slanging match on these threads.

@pa1oma

Holly, I don’t like to use the word ‘ignorant’ to people, but with your comments you are sailing close to the wind.

I’ve been a SAHM for 17 years. I have a degree, an MA I completed when I was about 26 and I’ve more recently done another MA which is also a professional qualification that will enable me to work on my own terms, if and when I decide to.

As for “play full time housekeeper,” I have a cleaner for 4 hours twice a week, thanks very much.

And as an ex psychotherapist, I found my kids anything but boring. They are amazing and I’ve been privileged to not miss a thing. One is dyslexic and I’ve done training courses to help her - something I found interesting in its own right. My DS now has offers from UCL, Bath and Durham and is waiting to hear from Cambridge and LSE. This is a child certain teachers wrote off when he was 7. I can assure you, my education is not wasted and I’ve been able to support and extend my kids learning because of it. We are in London and there can be 1500 applicants for 100 places at the schools they attend. It takes effort to get them through. Sorry if that sounds like bragging, but you said what you said and I will bite back because if you think being at home is all about dusting and watching CBeebies, then that says more about you. My daughters are hardly held back or lacking in ambition - are you joking?? They are in the top girls school in the U.K. and will do whatever they want. Education will give them choices and if yet decide that’s being at home for a while - I hope that happens fir them. I will support them all the way. My DS got 10 9s at GCSE and, yes, I supported him all the way too, just as I’ve helped him now with his uni applications. The fact you have such a dim view of being with kids is your problem. Fortunately it’s not mine. And all the SAHMs I know (which is a lot) would say exactly the same. I guess you either get it or you don’t.

I think I'd call it a child centred philosophy, mine is the same but different backgrounds. I have 2 what society would deem as normal children (but grown up now) and then dd. There is absolutely no way I could have supported her and have been employed too. There were times I did work, but it was to benefit the family, for ourselves, my own terms and conditions. Dh has been the sole financial provider most of our 30 odd years together. For me I didn't want to miss out, and no amount of money would have made me feel differently. We took the lower earner, as I was better at supporting whilst dh worked, but we were all part of that paid or not. So, there's no right or wrong just what's right for you as a woman, what makes you happiest, so you are true to yourself and some use to your family and relationships.

@SnailortheWhale

Something that always resonates with me on these threads is talk of ‘facilitation’. For me, I would hate my life to be about facilitating other people’s but maybe that just means I’m a selfish person, I don’t know. I fully agree with the view that education can be used valuably in bringing up children but to what end-to help THEM get into good unis? To do what? For me it wouldn’t be enough for my life to be about facilitating other people which is what I think it would be as a SAHM. Of course I want to help my kids and support them in every way, same for my husband where I can, but I also need to achieve things for myself at the same time. I think that’s a key difference with (content and happy) SAHMs, not lesser intelligence but perhaps a more selfless streak. It’s a really interesting issue which I enjoy discussion and debate around, but it’s a shame it always turns into a slanging match on these threads.

Interesting you use the word facilitating with such disdain.

I remember meeting one of the Exec team when I got my first proper Graduate role and he said to me - I don't understand your job, I don't need to - think of me as a facilitator - you need something I can arrange it - I simply enable people to do their jobs.

I achieved things when I was a SAHM - they just weren't things I was paid to achieve - I was bloody proud of them all the same - they weren't all child related but when you get a card from your ds who says they appreciate all the time and effort you put into helping them through every medical appt (under 4 different consultants at one point), spending time creating lovely food for their stupidly strict diet and telling you unprompted how much they appreciate your always being there to emotionally support them through their difficult times, to pick them up from school during the day when they feel too ill to continue - that feels like a privilege and an achievement.

@SnailortheWhale

Something that always resonates with me on these threads is talk of ‘facilitation’. For me, I would hate my life to be about facilitating other people’s but maybe that just means I’m a selfish person, I don’t know. I fully agree with the view that education can be used valuably in bringing up children but to what end-to help THEM get into good unis? To do what? For me it wouldn’t be enough for my life to be about facilitating other people which is what I think it would be as a SAHM. Of course I want to help my kids and support them in every way, same for my husband where I can, but I also need to achieve things for myself at the same time. I think that’s a key difference with (content and happy) SAHMs, not lesser intelligence but perhaps a more selfless streak. It’s a really interesting issue which I enjoy discussion and debate around, but it’s a shame it always turns into a slanging match on these threads.

You’ve contributed immensely to the slanging match

Being a facilitator can be very rewarding.
As any parent knows, we all facilitate learning and socialisation, whether we work or not.
Do we not model good behaviour and teach morals, right from wrong.
We facilitate this learning, we don't know the answer to a question they ask, but refuse to answer.
If we don't know the answer don't we facilitate them finding it, maybe support this learning?

I think it’s just a different ethos @SnailortheWhale. Some women are happy that their children ARE their achievement. To this end they are prepared to sacrifice their own personal success and financial independence to do so. There are many intelligent women on here who seem to have made this choice to totally devote themselves for their families at their own expense. To many others, it seems utterly bonkers to not go for a sense of achievement on our own talents/ merits rather than parenting our children (and in many cases) husbands to success but it appears that many others are wholly satisfied with this.

I think, for me, the whole corporate life would have felt like a prison. I can’t get motivated by any of that as can’t see the point and I’d get bored and restless. But still, I respect anyone who has that type of career - or anyone who finds inspiration in whatever they do. It’s obvious to me that everyone is different and I would never say someone is boring or underselling themselves for doing x,y,z. Who am I to judge anyone else? If you’re not cut out for SAH, that’s fine. Far better to be honest with yourself and do what you need to do. It’s a cliche but ultimately, a good mum is a happy mum - whether she’s part-time, shift-worker, SAH or full-time.

@SnailortheWhale

Something that always resonates with me on these threads is talk of ‘facilitation’. For me, I would hate my life to be about facilitating other people’s but maybe that just means I’m a selfish person, I don’t know. I fully agree with the view that education can be used valuably in bringing up children but to what end-to help THEM get into good unis? To do what? For me it wouldn’t be enough for my life to be about facilitating other people which is what I think it would be as a SAHM. Of course I want to help my kids and support them in every way, same for my husband where I can, but I also need to achieve things for myself at the same time. I think that’s a key difference with (content and happy) SAHMs, not lesser intelligence but perhaps a more selfless streak. It’s a really interesting issue which I enjoy discussion and debate around, but it’s a shame it always turns into a slanging match on these threads.

I do think it’s an interesting question. I don’t have time for the dichotomy of SAHM vs ‘careers’, as though the latter is inherently meaningful, but I do think it’s always worth retaining and developing parts of your own identity that are you, exclusively you, and not tied to anyone else. It doesn’t necessarily matter what that is aspect of your identity is, or what it is you do, but I’ve seen the negative side effects of devoting absolutely everything to other individuals (spouse, or children) and feeling like you’ve been left with nothing if they move on, or disappoint you, or betray you, or don’t live up to the implicit or explicit expectations you have of them.

But I’m not so sure that this is purely facilitation we’re talking about. Is it a a failure to be a teacher for decades - one who inspires a generation of successful scientists, say - but who never becomes a scientist in their own right? I don’t think so. We all have different inclinations and are all fit out for different things.

And I am not financially vulnerable. If I was financially vulnerable, I would not live like this. Simple as that. Above all, would not risk my children’s future. I am far less financially vulnerable for being a SAHM. If my marriage ended tomorrow, I would be many many times better off than if I’d been working all these years. Above all, my children’s financial futures are secure because DH was in a position to make the kind of money to make that kind of generational difference. I have no problem if people want to call it ‘facilitating.’ Sometimes life takes a certain turn and it was common sense for me to support DH because we ALL benefit as a result. Not only now, but long-term. I’d have been stupid not to.

I'm not financially vulnerable.
I own half of everything, the business I've contributed to immensely.
Dd is really happy and thriving and our choices have given her the best outcome for her future.
I can guarantee this wouldn't have been the case had we made different choices.
My contributions are acknowledged and appreciated all the time professionally, personally and family, I just don't have a paid job with a title. I feel no need to define myself.
I could go and work for someone else but have never seen the point for me.

Man this is a depressing thread for various reasons....

The assumption by some that every job is ‘career. Not everyone is choosing between being a SAHM and a well paid career they love. Many choose SAHM over a low paid job that doesn’t even cover their childcare costs. Generations of my family have given up work to raise children and then gone back to jobs after their children.

The assumption in many comments that being a SAHM means you are not financially independent. I know many financially savvy SAHM and many working mums who struggle financially.

The constant reference to parenting and looking after children as if it is a task with absolutely no value what so ever, or where no skill is needed.

The distain that is being shown by some posters because other people have different values to theirs is shocking. People have different values and are willing to sacrifice different parts of their lives. You could equally argue having a career is sacrificing your personal life as you could argue being a SAHM is sacrificing your career/financial stability.

... To many others, it seems utterly bonkers to not go for a sense of achievement on our own talents/ merits rather than parenting our children...

So is your work your only achievement?
My family certainly isn't mine.
There are so many ways to feel accomplished than by getting paid.

@Kottbullar

... To many others, it seems utterly bonkers to not go for a sense of achievement on our own talents/ merits rather than parenting our children...

So is your work your only achievement?
My family certainly isn't mine.
There are so many ways to feel accomplished than by getting paid.

You can "go for a sense of achievement on your own talents/ merits, parent your children" and have no need for a job, though.

Surely, those with a need for a job will have one, or be looking for one

@Holyrivolli

I think it’s just a different ethos *@SnailortheWhale*. Some women are happy that their children ARE their achievement. To this end they are prepared to sacrifice their own personal success and financial independence to do so. There are many intelligent women on here who seem to have made this choice to totally devote themselves for their families at their own expense. To many others, it seems utterly bonkers to not go for a sense of achievement on our own talents/ merits rather than parenting our children (and in many cases) husbands to success but it appears that many others are wholly satisfied with this.

Another dreadful patronising and disdainful little bit of knife twisting towards the end of this contribution I see.

You are either being deliberately provocative or you are simply ignorant.

It I was responsible for your personal professional development at work I think I’d identify a clear need for some support and review around empathy, respect and ability to comprehend decisions /feelings of other and written communication. Who knows part of that might involve mentoring by someone who’d by chance happened to have been a SAHM.

Some of the most hard working and successful, well regarded women I have ever managed are women returning to the workplace after a significant period of time. Their emotional intelligence, resilience and work ethic are high. They are also generally very reliable, mature considerate and decent people. They are much of an asset to the workplace as you consider yourself to be.

I find it hard that you or anyone else who claim to be a supported of women’s rights would not see this. Or that by denigrating or minimising any value -in its fullest sense of the word - of the SAHM and her wider role as a parent and again in society you are damaging and regressive to that concept.

@AIMD

Man this is a depressing thread for various reasons....

The assumption by some that every job is ‘career. Not everyone is choosing between being a SAHM and a well paid career they love. Many choose SAHM over a low paid job that doesn’t even cover their childcare costs. Generations of my family have given up work to raise children and then gone back to jobs after their children.

The assumption in many comments that being a SAHM means you are not financially independent. I know many financially savvy SAHM and many working mums who struggle financially.

The constant reference to parenting and looking after children as if it is a task with absolutely no value what so ever, or where no skill is needed.

The distain that is being shown by some posters because other people have different values to theirs is shocking. People have different values and are willing to sacrifice different parts of their lives. You could equally argue having a career is sacrificing your personal life as you could argue being a SAHM is sacrificing your career/financial stability.

^ Great post. Yes it's the disdain that depresses me to. It's surely mysogynistic to dismiss the choices of some women and underplay the value of caring roles, whatever setting that may be in.

As a pp rightly pointed out, it is this attitude which leads in part to "many substandard nurseries and other settings, high staff turnover and poor retention, low morale, absurdly low pay." Yet those issues are rarely highlighted on threads such as these.

Finally the snide mention about sahms "relying on the benevolence" of another person really gets my goat. Do the wohps here really consider it an act of benevolence to contribute to the family pot? Are wohps "being benevolent" when they pay a nursery to look after their child?

I agree that the tone of this debate is always difficult with disparaging remarks on both sides that upset people ("I don't work because I really care for my kids" vs "l work because anyone who doesn't is limited and isn't doing something socially valuable". I hope that I won't compound this with my views, which are

1. I would love for women to have choices, as many as possible! And I would like it if women were not judged so harshly for the decisions they make in either direction.

1. I think that policies need to be in place to make it easier for women to be mothers, whether or not SAHMs - shared parental leave options strengthened, anti discrimination/flexible working laws given more teeth, back to work support for those who take time out to care, better support for mothers of disabled kids . And to force men to pay child support etc - it's amazing to me that working mums still get more shade from some areas (not referring to this thread btw, just socially - every single interview with a successful woman with kids asks her about "juggling", which is a veiled way of saying "do you spend enough time with them") than deadbeat dads who don't pay anything towards their children's' lives.

1. Yes, some non working mums are in a more vulnerable position than working mums (though women who are in low paying jobs whose partner leaves them are also vulnerable - it's not a straight work vs non work thing). You do see this on the boards here - women have kids and then realise that their "partner" doesn't actually intend to share with them but expects them to do everything and women pick up the slack at considerable economic and personal sacrifice to try to ensure their kids have good lives. This is not right. It isn't inherent in being a SAHM though - lots of couples do share, see themselves as a team and put money in pensions etc and it would be sensible for the government to incentivise this and not just stigmatise single mothers who have had the misfortune to be taken in by shitty men. If, as is now the case, spousal maintenance post divorce is a thing of the past, the flip side should be more focus on women not being economically disadvantaged by marriage and kids.

1. It IS often an achievement to rise up as a working mum and that is worth shouting about (and doesn't diminish the fact that SAHMs are doing something valuable too!). Most of my male colleagues have SAHM partners who do everything. All my female colleagues share equally with their partners or do the lion's share. I don't resent the SAHMs at all in this, but I do wish that there was a level of acknowledgement that (at least in my profession), you actually have to be better than the men at juggling AND at least as good in your job to succeed. My workplace genuinely keep scratching their heads about why there are not more female partners, whilst rewarding a level of "commitment" that is only sustainable with a SAH partner to pick up all the slack.

1. I work part time keeping my career ticking over but not progressing, whilst I balance spending time with my young kids. It's right for me, but it doesn't make me a hero - the economics stack up for me because I am well paid and lots of women don't have the choice to pick what works for them, because workplaces are inflexible, childcare is expensive, they are low paid etc. This needs more focus.

1. My mum was a SAHM and I respect her choice and freely admit that I benefited from the time and facilitation of activities that she was able to provide, my mum and dad are a partnership and modelled great teamwork and shared money - it was the right call for them, as they are happy with it. Why am I not a SAHM too? Well, because I quite like my job and I think time away does make me a better mum (though both my mum and dad judge me for this). Because I don't want to put my eggs in one basket. Because my husband is lukewarm about his career and I don't want to force him to do it for the money if I step off the ladder. And because I didn't feel that after 11 I benefited from the SAHM structure - it's not that it is not valuable, just that my mum gave up a lot in her life and didn't have much in terms of hobbies/activities/interests, so her interest in my life was quite stifling and negative through my teenage years. I want to avoid that for me (I have a similar anxious personality and struggle with networking, which is helpful to build a social circle!) but it doesn't mean that all SAHMs are like this. I know that I could be a SAHM and volunteer, manage family assets, do a degree, have lots of hobbies etc and have a rich life. These are my own personal reasons and experiences - I wouldn't dream of projecting them onto other women.

Depressing thread. I've never come across men being chided for "not setting a good example".

This debate will always go round in circles.

I think we all need to acknowledge that many women work because they absolutely have to, in poorly paid jobs. Not everyone has a career, or wants one. Many women do not work because they cannot afford childcare, or have no means of support.

And no, the situation is not going to improve anytime soon because childcare has no value. We do not, as a nation, value it. We are not going to tax ourselves more highly to pay for it.

Meanwhile, we are all just plodding on, doing what we have to do in the circumstances we find ourselves in. And tearing each other to shreds for our choices, or lack of them.

Let's have some solidarity please!

Oh and btw in my point 4 below, I think that this does illustrate the value of the cares SAHM provides - there is such luxury in knowing your kids are in great hands and being able to dip in and out as you please. Sadly, though, society values childcare as much as men do, which is to say, not very much really. The men I work with don't shout about how amazing their wives are as how they would never have got there without them, but they really should 😁!