Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

I think people are confusing sex and gender! Again.
Woman = biological woman. Can present as male or female (gender) or neither/both etc. Does not possess Y chromosome.
Transmen = biological woman (sex), male (gender).
Man = biological man (sex). Can present as male or female (gender) or neither/both. Will possess y chromosome.
Trans woman: biological man (sex). Female (gender).

There are intersex variations that do not fit within this binary system but these are exceptionally rare.

Gender can be changed. Chromosomes cannot.

Join a group that doesn't care, this is clearly an inclusive group.

No it isn't inclusive of me as a woman with the condition if I am going to be made to feel uncomfortable for talking about my lived experience as a woman.

I think the fact that this was their first question and contact would indicate to me that the moderators have an agenda, which is not primarily around supporting women.
It's perfectly reasonable and good to be inclusive of everyone who is affected and they could have done that without making a big fuss and deliberately making some women uncomfortable, but it would seem that's less important than policing right think.

How many mens groups are inclusive?

How would I know that?

What exactly does that have to do with the people who run this group in particular choosing to be inclusive.

It may well be run by a trans man for all anyone knows.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

I think people are confusing sex and gender! Again. Woman = biological woman. Can present as male or female (gender) or neither/both etc. Does not possess Y chromosome. Transmen = biological woman (sex), male (gender). Man = biological man (sex). Can present as male or female (gender) or neither/both. Will possess y chromosome. Trans woman: biological man (sex). Female (gender).

There are intersex variations that do not fit within this binary system but these are exceptionally rare.

Gender can be changed. Chromosomes cannot.

Intersex people are still either male or female.

It's not inclusive to make women walk on eggshells when talking about their bodies. Let's be clear.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

How many mens groups are inclusive?

How would I know that?

What exactly does that have to do with the people who run this group in particular choosing to be inclusive.

It may well be run by a trans man for all anyone knows.

Because it always seems to be women who are expected to open up their spaces and be inclusive. Nobody ever seems to expect men to do the same.

Transmen and some non binary people have vaginas too.

Are we meant to believe that non-binary people don't have a sex now? (Genuine question - is this what is being claimed? I though non-binary was meant to refer to not wanting to relate to either gender, not sex?)

No it isn't inclusive of me as a woman with the condition if I am going to be made to feel uncomfortable for talking about my lived experience as a woman.

So they should oust another set of people to make you comfortable? Can't you see the hypocrisy there?

@notreallybotheredaboutausernam

Transmen and some non binary people have vaginas too.

But everyone here will agree with you as MN is fiercly anti-trans.

Or are they pro-women and believe that women should be recognised and respected as a biological sex?

yes, some men do have vaginas

No, they really don’t!

Some transmen have vaginas because biologically they’re women. Only women have vaginas.

Intersex people are still either male or female.

Apologies this is true. Anyone can any gender they like.

Some males have vaginas.

Because it always seems to be women who are expected to open up their spaces and be inclusive. Nobody ever seems to expect men to do the same.

Why is including transgender men having to open up spaces? You believe they are women, so there's no issue with that, just a couple of words that have to be changed if you wanted to join this group in particular.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Because it always seems to be women who are expected to open up their spaces and be inclusive. Nobody ever seems to expect men to do the same.

Why is including transgender men having to open up spaces? You believe they are women, so there's no issue with that, just a couple of words that have to be changed if you wanted to join this group in particular.

I wasn't just talking about Facebook groups.

You sound very defensive though.

Why can't it get a group for female women.

There are probably support groups out there for female men (transwomen) so why can't there be a support group for female women.

Why would a female who identifies as a man want to discuss his vagina with females who identify as women? Surely that would be highly triggering for him. What support could you possibly offer to each other, your experiences would be so different.

I can see why a transwoman would benefit from say a prostate cancer group with men, as cancer treatments are the same. But I cannot understand why you would want to conflate transmen and women when the underlying issue is primarily psychological. A group for men with vaginismus would be much more appropriate.

So they should oust another set of people to make you comfortable?

Did she say that? She said it wasn't inclusive of women. Which it isn't.

@ivfbeenbusy

Well surely if they are trans then they'd want to be referred to as a female pronoun surely? So you wouldn't need to address the group as "men"?

But some male partners may wish to join the support group if their female partners suffer from the condition so this doesn't always have to be a trans issue?

Male partners could start a support group for the male partners of women with vaginismus. Does anyone honestly think women experiencing this particular condition would prefer a group that had male partners in it?

@CaraDuneRedux

Does anyone think for one moment that a man who contacted an online support group for, say, prostate cancer sufferers, would immediately be asked to pass some sort of woke test?

Of course he wouldn't.

This is a blatantly misogynistic, deeply regressive movement aimed at making any discussion of women's biology unsayable. And furthermore it's a complete smokescreen to suggest it's driven by concern for transmen. It's driven by the fact that reference to women's specific biological needs and concerns, and the way this intersects with a sexist society (e.g. vaginismus - which I suffered from as a young woman - in the context of a society which frames penetrative sex as the normal, appropriate, correct way for both sexes to get sexual pleasure even though that comes easily to the majority of men, but is probably a "learned skill" for a substantial fraction of women) excludes transwomen from these discussions, and God forbid transwomen should ever be excluded from anything.

And no, men do not have vaginas. Only women have vaginas. This may include some women who sincerely wish they had been born men, and who find life easier if they live according to the sex stereotypes our society arbitrarily associates with men, but that doesn't magically change their underlying biology.

I was planning a response but thanks to this very clear explanation of what is happening with the way people seem to be trying to erase women’s biology from the universe I don’t need to.

Thanks @CaraDuneRedux.

I can be inclusive without having to bend over backwards and tie myself up in knots.

This isn't about being inclusive it is about policing language. A message just to say that some members identify as trans or NB and to be mindful of this was all that was needed.

Some males have vaginas

Who?? I am sorry but this is just confusing now. Vaginas are female - how can a male have a vagina?

It's bonkers

Hello ladies men and everyone

So, ok, if I can accept "some men have vaginas" fine.

But they're basically saying the group is open to ladies, men and everyone. Most men have a penis. So presumably men and people with a penis are also allowed in the group.

These men and people with penises may get a thrill, pervy or fetishy, from hearing about women with extremely tight vaginas, who find sex painful.
I'm sure it's featured on Pornhub because everything bloody well is.

What is some uses don't want to risk sharing their story with all and sundry in the name of "inclusivity".

It's always the same for women. Trans inclusivity opens the doors to everyone including exactly the (male) people you don't want in a female only space. No one actually gives a shit about the actual women.

Everyone keeps banging on about how MN is anti trans. Considering it's the biggest womens forum in the world do you not think that might....I don't know....MEAN something?

Vaginas are female - how can a male have a vagina?

Good question.