Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

They couldn't be pregnant so no I wouldn't feel comfortable. I wouldn't be comfortable with women who weren't pregnant there either though.

Fair enough.

@notreallybotheredaboutausernam

Transmen and some non binary people have vaginas too.

But everyone here will agree with you as MN is fiercly anti-trans.

This^^

No, plenty of us aren't transphobic

Standing up for the rights of women and girls isn't "transphobic". And most women on MN are perfectly aware what a woman is. As in the wider world.

@Nc109283485
I'd give this group a miss and try to find another one, it doesn't sound as though this group is inclusive to biological women.

@mondayyogurt
Absolutely - I demand my right to gatecrush discussion of their limp dicks. See you in the church hall tonight: three butch ladies, one bloke in a lilac frilly frock and a couple of poor sods who feel embarrassed that they can't get it up.

Only women have vaginas, and this is a women’s issue.

I would not continue with my application to this group if I were you, and I hope you get the support you need.

I'm not sure... on the one hand non binary people and trans men do exist and may sometimes suffer from this problem so will have need of this group too.... on the other hand they should not force you to change your language when talking about yourself or your concerns... so I think the way they phrased this question was bad... they should have let you know it was a group which allowed trans people in and asked if you were willing to respect the pronouns of any trans people in the group and not misgender anyone.
I dont agree with them trying to force you to word any posts about yourself in gender neutral language or having to think of men when talking generally...
Groups often get referred to as 'guys' or 'mankind' or even 'man' when being discussed in general by speakers and you dont see all the women losing their shit about that... sometimes whoever talking will refer to a group by their own gender label.. and I think when it comes to personal issues we should allow that because its shitty to try and police someone who's reaching out for support and help
As long as no one is trying to push out trans people who have need of the group or aggressively misgendering them as individuals I dont think this is a problem.

Does anyone think for one moment that a man who contacted an online support group for, say, prostate cancer sufferers, would immediately be asked to pass some sort of woke test?

Of course he wouldn't.

This is a blatantly misogynistic, deeply regressive movement aimed at making any discussion of women's biology unsayable. And furthermore it's a complete smokescreen to suggest it's driven by concern for transmen. It's driven by the fact that reference to women's specific biological needs and concerns, and the way this intersects with a sexist society (e.g. vaginismus - which I suffered from as a young woman - in the context of a society which frames penetrative sex as the normal, appropriate, correct way for both sexes to get sexual pleasure even though that comes easily to the majority of men, but is probably a "learned skill" for a substantial fraction of women) excludes transwomen from these discussions, and God forbid transwomen should ever be excluded from anything.

And no, men do not have vaginas. Only women have vaginas. This may include some women who sincerely wish they had been born men, and who find life easier if they live according to the sex stereotypes our society arbitrarily associates with men, but that doesn't magically change their underlying biology.

@ZoeTurtle
No, plenty of us aren't transphobic. You don't speak for the whole "community
It's very telling that you see female erasure as transphobic, mmm

@blackcat86

That's ridiculous! I left a breastfeeding group who insisted on calling it chestfeeding. I don't understand why acknowledging that some trans people may still experience associated with parts of their body from their birth gender means that woman can't use language that they feel comfortable with. How many trans people are actually in that group and likely to be offended by you using terms like ladies?

I don't get why the term breastfeeding is considered offensive or not inclusive. Last time I checked men have breasts. They can get breast cancer. So how can the word breastfeeding not be inclusive of trans men when everybody has breasts?

@Moonmelodies

Aside from the trans issue ... Is it possible that men who have partners with vaginismus might seek support/information/advice too?

I'm not sure I'd want to talk to a man on a forum about this issue. If a man's partner has vaginismus then he could research forums and suggest his partner goes on - why would he think any of the women there would want him on there?

Surely if you believe that trans men are women, you also believe that they need to talk about any problems with their vaginas in a setting that they feel comfortable in as well as part of your 'standing up for women' mantra (after all, it is your belief they are women).

There will be other groups that don't care about language, join one of those instead, let others have the option to talk about their problems in a setting comfortable for them too.

Or should all transgender people just fuck off somewhere else and not expect any respect at all?

Try starting a thread about cis women on here and you'll soon see how language matters, when it's convenient.

Well surely if they are trans then they'd want to be referred to as a female pronoun surely? So you wouldn't need to address the group as "men"?

But some male partners may wish to join the support group if their female partners suffer from the condition so this doesn't always have to be a trans issue?

Toads is looking for logic

@ivfbeenbusy

Well surely if they are trans then they'd want to be referred to as a female pronoun surely? So you wouldn't need to address the group as "men"?

But some male partners may wish to join the support group if their female partners suffer from the condition so this doesn't always have to be a trans issue?

Transmen would want to be referred to as men.

However they can't police the language of everyone in the world.

Surely if you believe that trans men are women, you also believe that they need to talk about any problems with their vaginas in a setting that they feel comfortable in as well as part of your 'standing up for women' mantra (after all, it is your belief they are women).

Surely everyone should be able to use the terms which they feel most comfortable with? Not just trans people? What about what other women are comfortable with?

Seriously to everyone who thinks that this is acceptable needs to FO. How I have 3 children baffles me, I can't even remember the last time I had sex. So yes I would be polite but no way am I going to tailor my language when talking about an issue that happens due to my female biology in case someone gets offended when I talk about it and how it has fucking affecting my life and therefore my marriage for 18 fucking years.

So yeah all you who think it isn't an issue fuck off because no one has a right to diminish my lived experience.

I am so so angry that my issue that has an impact on my life is being used by others that don't as a weapon against me.

So OP YANBU

Surely if you believe that trans men are women, you also believe that they need to talk about any problems with their vaginas in a setting that they feel comfortable in as well as part of your 'standing up for women' mantra (after all, it is your belief they are women).

Of course they should be able to talk about their vaginal problems. Such a lame "gotcha". The question is, should the group's language be changed to accommodate females who think they're males. And it clearly shouldn't.

Groups on facebook could be run by absolutely anyone so you always have to watch what you say. Also remember any women on it could be fake profiles and actually perverts.

Its not a gotcha, lame, or otherwise.

There are groups who will use inclusive language, and groups who don't care.

Join a group that doesn't care, this is clearly an inclusive group.

Is it that big a deal that some groups cater for transgender people as well?

@midgebabe

Toads is looking for logic

Sorry I keep forgetting that it's not allowed

It tells you something that their first communication to you wasn't 'how can we help you' but do you pass our woke test

This. It isn't going to be a helpful group, OP. I hope you manage to get advice elsewhere.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Its not a gotcha, lame, or otherwise.

There are groups who will use inclusive language, and groups who don't care.

Join a group that doesn't care, this is clearly an inclusive group.

Is it that big a deal that some groups cater for transgender people as well?

How many mens groups are inclusive?

@Nc109283485

I am also aware that this does not make me inclusive and I don't like that feeling. I think there are a jumble of concerns here.

It's the group which is exclusionary, by not structuring it so that women with your condition will feel safe and welcome.

Seriously, you are not the exclusionary one here. It's their issue, not yours.

But some male partners may wish to join the support group if their female partners suffer from the condition so this doesn't always have to be a trans issue?

Many women wouldn't feel comfortable with this. Some things are too sensitive to want males present.