Capitol Hill and the next 2 weeks (Trump #118)

[Roussette]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4128051-Coup-on-Capitol-Hill-Trump-117

Fast moving threads....

I think the Zuckerberg statement, at first reading at least, seems pretty measured, given the enormity of what it actually means. The 'Leader of the Free World' has just been publically censured and censored to protect democracy, Just incredible.

Amy Siskind Rainbow flag
@Amy_Siskind
Trump is not allowing Pence's chief of staff into the White House. So if you think Trump is going to play along nicely for next 13 days, I have some rainbow unicorns to sell you. He must be removed!

itsgettingweird we're always nice on these threads!

As far as the police, why were there just two or three Police officers in front of a flimsy barrier that was an entrance to the Capitol building? There is no excuse whatsoever. And I'm pleased to see and hear there are more calls from people questioning this

Link to the video I referenced regarding the gates simply being opened for protestors (and discussion of the circumstances around the filming, etc.)

www.snopes.com/fact-check/capitol-police-opened-gates

Whether or not the police opened the gates is unproven; they did not resist when the gates were open, and there are photos of capitol police taking selfies with the mob.

security and police presence was so totally inept

I'm not sure that it is fair to label the security abs police presence inept. They will have been following orders.

This picture has been widely shared. It illustrates how the same forces are perfectly capable of making a show of force when directed to do so. Their different approach to control of the crowd yesterday must surely reflect the relevant direction.

@RedToothBrush

DGR, I do wonder what the police could have done differently yesterday. If in the situation in the video, they had got a gun out even to fire a warning shot, what would have happened?

If they had shot at the mob, how long would the police there have lived?

The situation had already not been managed at the point the crowds had been able to gather in the way they had.

Eamon Javers @EamonJavers
I am told to expect a number of federal criminal charges to be filed today against people involved in yesterday’s lawlessness in Washington. Details to come.

Once again, the same caveat applies ... today is not yesterday plus a day

2016 was not 1973+43 years. Things move on and change forever.

A lot of policing of demonstrations will have moved from the more visible thin blue line, beloved of the Met and miners of the 1980s, to a much more intelligence-based approach. Ongoing surveillance of known "faces" and planning of events means there's much less need to have a small army standing by - along with the fact that the presence of a small army is in itself a tactic that troublemakers can use to stir up trouble.

Combine that with the various technologies we all know about - drones, facial recognition, pattern matching; plus the ones we don't - and you have a completely different approach to 21st century demonstrations than the 80s and 90s. As we know, people who kick off don't need to be arrested on the spot - risking a confrontation. They can be snapped, identified, and quietly picked up when it suits the police.

I'd hope that's partly what's going on in the US and UK.

I knew a senior policeman who had a special interest in public order in the 1990s. He said that it was all going hi tech then. Much better use of police resources - and it looks better too.

Speaking as someone who went on all the marches in London after the referendum and only saw about a dozen police all apparently wandering aimlessly, it's something to ponder on. If we had to march with a line of policemen either side it would have been a very different experience.

Notice they did clear the building quite quickly later on with a few flash bangs and some tear gas.

That was after Pence called in the National Guard, as I understand it. Trump had refused to do this, despite a request from the Washington DC Mayor.

I suppose it would be rather difficult for the police to act against a mob that had been incited into violent action by the President himself.

ListeningQ

I remember someone chucking flour from the visitors gallery in the Houses of Parliament or something. It hit Tony Blair. They then installed screens

Schumer has called for the 25th or impeachmnent.

@Wherrsmaclickypen

I think the Zuckerberg statement, at first reading at least, seems pretty measured, given the enormity of what it actually means. The 'Leader of the Free World' has just been publically censured and censored to protect democracy, Just incredible.

Indeed.

And what's arguably worse is the person to do is not someone from within the political sphere, a person who is part of the checks and balances against abuse of power and has taken an oath to defend democracy but a billionaire tech businessman.....

The people who should be "containing" Trump are paralysed by their own self interest, desperate not to antagonise the MAGA cohort and lose their votes.

There were some interesting choices of flags on show weren't there? Obviously a whole load of Confederate ones, some were clearly Qanon symbols/memes, but I saw some I didn't recognise. Eg. One of a white square with red around it.

Gut reaction is it's probably something to do with either qanon or white supremacy. Tbh I wouldn't have been surprised to see white hoods in amongst all of the MAGA hats.

I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks the police (a) do, and (b) should do ?

Personally, I have some weird hippy ideal about protecting life and then property. Much like a fireman, really. And in that order too.

So much as you might think it's my job to pop a cap in the ass of the guy who nicked your last Rolo, I'd have different ideas. Firstly ensuring you are safe, plus anyone in the immediate vicinity. Only then would I begin worrying about your property.

@MedusasBadHairDay

There were some interesting choices of flags on show weren't there? Obviously a whole load of Confederate ones, some were clearly Qanon symbols/memes, but I saw some I didn't recognise. Eg. One of a white square with red around it.

Gut reaction is it's probably something to do with either qanon or white supremacy. Tbh I wouldn't have been surprised to see white hoods in amongst all of the MAGA hats.

As well as tattoos and tshirt slogans.

Lion I'm not even sure what to say to that. I hadn't seen the tweet but it's 10 times worse than I'd realised.

@DGRossetti

I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks the police (a) do, and (b) should do ?

Personally, I have some weird hippy ideal about protecting life and then property. Much like a fireman, really. And in that order too.

So much as you might think it's my job to pop a cap in the ass of the guy who nicked your last Rolo, I'd have different ideas. Firstly ensuring you are safe, plus anyone in the immediate vicinity. Only then would I begin worrying about your property.

I think I said on last thread that i dont necessairly have a problem with treating protesters gently, talking, taking photos etc if it refuses the situation (especially if they were swept along and not sure what to do now they are in the Capitol). The problem is when you have a gentle approach for one type of protest and a violent approach for another type of protest (even peaceful one).

People do have funny ideas about property though so some might want you to worry about that first! I once got complained at because some (admittedly expensive) sporting equipment was being damaged having been left while children were got to safety in deteriorating weather conditions so nothing surprises me...

If this were a fairy tale, the story of the Goose Girl seems appropriate ...

@Wherrsmaclickypen

I think the Zuckerberg statement, at first reading at least, seems pretty measured, given the enormity of what it actually means. The 'Leader of the Free World' has just been publically censured and censored to protect democracy, Just incredible.

Certainly says more than the statement actually says.

My fear is it will actually make him get worse.

I worry most about when he isn't president if he can get away with doing this when he is.

@DGRossetti

I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks the police (a) do, and (b) should do ?

Personally, I have some weird hippy ideal about protecting life and then property. Much like a fireman, really. And in that order too.

So much as you might think it's my job to pop a cap in the ass of the guy who nicked your last Rolo, I'd have different ideas. Firstly ensuring you are safe, plus anyone in the immediate vicinity. Only then would I begin worrying about your property.

People have been crushed to death because of closed gates and fences so I take damage to property over loss of lives.

Personally, I have some weird hippy ideal about protecting life and then property. Much like a fireman, really. And in that order too.

Agreed. Would be good if they could take that approach to black people protesting too.

When does the twitter ban end?

I think I said on last thread that i dont necessairly have a problem with treating protesters gently, talking, taking photos etc if it refuses the situation (especially if they were swept along and not sure what to do now they are in the Capitol). The problem is when you have a gentle approach for one type of protest and a violent approach for another type of protest (even peaceful one).

I was suggesting (and am happy to state here and now it's in the absence of anything but my own neurons ...) that the tactics deployed yesterday were as a result of the obvious flaws in the BLM demo policing.

I appreciate the facts can be interpreted cynically though. And I can't really refute anyone who makes that assertion.

I wonder if he even wrote that tweet? Or at least that bit about allowing an 'orderly transfer of power'? It's a massive change from him saying the day before that he would 'never concede', after all.

People have been crushed to death because of closed gates and fences so I take damage to property over loss of lives.

Not quite sure I get what you mean there ? But I'm happy to restate my position. Life over property. Every single time. No ifs. No buts.

@Mittens030869

I wonder if he even wrote that tweet? Or at least that bit about allowing an 'orderly transfer of power'? It's a massive change from him saying the day before that he would 'never concede', after all.

Not really. He's still saying the election was stolen and he had the greatest ever first term of any President . That's very much his style.

He's also not conceding either - just saying an orderly transition, that's not admitting Biden won.

@MedusasBadHairDay

Personally, I have some weird hippy ideal about protecting life and then property. Much like a fireman, really. And in that order too.

Agreed. Would be good if they could take that approach to black people protesting too.

Well it should be obvious.

All life.

Anything else is a failure of policing, which lets everyone white, black and Trump down.

Once again, a weird view, but it's better to lose out under a system which treats everyone fairly, than it is to gain under a system that treats some unfairly. Mainly because heads on spikes is such a bad thing for tourism.

Zuckerberg's decision is purely because he knows he's about to come under the regulation of a fully Democratic Congress. That's it.