Coup on Capitol Hill (Trump#117)

[ZZTopGuitarSolo]

The ongoing Trump saga.

Continuing from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4110252-May-Hope-and-History-Rhyme-Trump-116

ken you are showing your own limited world view if you think every Trump supporter is a flat earther! Entrenchment is not helpful.

I don't think they're flat earthers (although I bet all flat earther are Trump supporting) it was an example of there being no amount of evidence that could change these people's opinions.

Sorry not read all the thread, But this is what is going to happen more and more if people will not except a democratic decision, it seems people think it’s ok to complain, March, protest etc if they don’t agree with the vote, we had it with trump, Brexit, Boris, etc, yes in a democracy you can campaign and over time maybe people’s opinions will change, but it’s leading to riots now, Democracy can not work properly if we object to every decision we might as well have a dictatorship

Democracies especially largely peaceful ones, do not work that way.
@Icanseegreenshoots, are you talking about the US?

The US is not a democracy and certainly not a peaceful one. It is a Republic, for starters, and it thrived for its first 150 years on the backs of enslaved millions. Thereafter it happily put up with institutionalised peonage and a system of apartheid.

Only very recently has it been legal for whites and blacks to attend school together, get married, and serve in the armed forces among a multitude of other aspects of life. The right of black American citizens to vote is still under concerted attack.

And it is only a union thanks to a civil war won by one side, which proceeded to utterly crush the other.

It’s scarier to think that these people are... like us... you can be standing next to one in the post office... that’s why it is more comforting the think they are all knuckle dragging troglodytes (insulting to troglodytes...)

I suspect the reasons for the limited police response is because of the connivance in the unrest of the President himself. They had their hands tied behind their backs until the National Guard was called in by Pence, and not Trump.

Very likely, if there had been stronger action, there would have been more violence and potentially more deaths. There would have been supporters who were carrying guns after all. (Unlike the BLM protesters last year.)

Sadly, I suspect this will also turn out to have been a 'super spreader' event and there will be a rise in Covid infections (especially since the protesters we're wearing masks).

You are wrong actually, in Afghanistan and other states they have sat down with known terrorist groups and brokered peace and solutions. That is exactly what happened.

No, it’s not happened yet in Afghanistan. They have sat down, but they haven’t yet brokered anything.

www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/world/asia/afghanistan-peace-talks.html

Trump didn't want the National Guard there - hoping no doubt for enough violence to justify calling a State of Emergency.

Now they have to contain him for 13 days. I think Pence will view it as his God given duty to stand up for the Constitution, and I expect military leaders will as well. Trump is like a cornered animal - now at his most dangerous.

"They are in this to destroy an institution and the processes they hate because after more than 200 years it has started to work for the benefit of all the people, not just white men."
This is spot on. When Trump was talking about "draining the swamp" back in 2015/2016, he meant getting rid of anyone except white men, I've just realised. (I'm a bit slow, it's been bothering me since the start. It probably also meant "get rid of all those pesky rules so I can be a Fascist Dictator", too, now I think of it.)
This is so depressing, despite having been so foreseeable. I am remembering being teased a lot round the time of the election because I was loudly, vehemently, adamantly anti-Trump on social media and my friends thought I was exaggerating. But all this was what I was so afraid of. I've managed to refrain from "I told you so". There's no point. Everyone understands now.

...if it was Secret Service responsibility it was Trump 'behind' the levels of security.

No, no, no, this is not correct.

Trump does not directly control any security forces. He does not control the Secret Service, and security of the US Capitol is not the remit of the Secret Service anyway.

Quite a lot of people here have watched way too much TV.

If the US will insist on allowing an entertainment reality show B list celebrity to become president they can not be surprised that he has chosen to leave with a bang.

Actually I think you over estimate the intelligence and political awareness and engagement of the average voter (globally). Ukraine recently elected a comedian whose only experience in politics was playing the president on TV and I do not believe for a second Johnson would be were he is if he hadn't played the clown and made people laugh and like him. Voters in the UK said as much "you can have a laugh with him" serious politicians are boring.

math You have a low opinion of the US. Black and white children have been going to school together for over forty years, but don't let the facts hold you back. Segregation should never ever have happened in the first place, but since the 1960s and 1970s this has been phased out.

I think we need to stick with the facts. The US the last time I checked is in fact a democracy to say otherwise is false.

@Kendodd

ken you are showing your own limited world view if you think every Trump supporter is a flat earther! Entrenchment is not helpful.

I don't think they're flat earthers (although I bet all flat earther are Trump supporting) it was an example of there being no amount of evidence that could change these people's opinions.

Because the opinion came first, and then the scaffolding of "facts" that support it. It really is that simple.

Someone - for whatever reason - decides one day (because very little higher human behaviour is innate. It's why we spend years before we are adults) that (for example) they don't like accountants.

From that point on, everything they see, hear, read and watch is going to have to prop up that dislike. And anything that could contradict those "facts" becomes fake news or whatever.

I guess it some expression of insecurity coupled with narcissism. People like being "special" but they also don't feel confident enough to do it on their own. So they gravitate towards fruitloop opinions and feel somehow protected because some "clever people" give it an air of authority.

It's why uniforms work ....

www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/mob-rule-in-the-capitol?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_brand=tny&mbid=social_twitter&utm_social-type=owned

Democracy can not work properly if we object to every decision we might as well have a dictatorship

That’s a seriously worrying point of view. I suspect you don’t realise it though.

Fascinated in a macabre way about what the Trump family will now do. Scotland won;t have him, he can't live at Mar-a-largo as there is a condition he signed when he built it that it can't happen. NY hate him. What is going to happen for the next two years and where is he going to go.

Is Guantanamo Bay still in operation? Perfect place for the Trump family to hole up. With the added benefit of complimentary orange onesies which would set off the tango man’s complexion perfectly.

Agree KenDodd
I know people who like BoJo because 'he makes me laugh'. Is that all that's needed to be the most important person in a country? If so, why aren't one of the Chuckle Brothers PM here

I watched as Trump came through as the nomination and I was perplexed and horrified. I knew it would be bad. on these threads we talked endlessly how bad it could become. And the bad became normal because it was worse than that

North Korea would be an option, or Russia, Siberia.

Trump doesn't wield all that much power, though. Otherwise the courts wouldn't have thrown out all his legal challenges and state politicians and election officials wouldn't have withstood his efforts to pressure them into changing their electoral college results.

@DuncinToffee

North Korea would be an option, or Russia, Siberia.

I think the Trump family owe the Russians way too much money to hide out there.

I’m going Saudi is more their style.

The entrenched views on here - even on this thread - seem to not even realise they are part of the problem.

We hear the cry of:

Terrorists
Idiots
Racists
Lock Trump up in a prison camps

On and on they carry on feeding the division.
They continue to feed the flames and cement their own views, believing they are 'right' and only they know the answers and everyone else is a 'white supremacist' if they don't agree, or only partially agree. They long for 'ignore' buttons, so they can live peacefully in an echo chamber.

It is actually more worrying to me that so many have lost the capacity to even debate unsavoury viewpoints of others, much less concede there may be some valid points in all world views. Even those that belong to IS have some views that are interesting and valid.

The mass entrenchment is scary not the actions of a few weirdos breaking into capitol hill.
We should be very scared that this is the beginning of the end of true democracy - an ability to listen and be listened to - to choose to blend many views/religions and live peacefully respecting others - but not necessarily agreeing with them. The shrill woke brigade forcing safe spaces and closing down conversation because it does not sit well with x,y and z will lead us into the darkest place yet.

@Icanseegreenshoots

math You have a low opinion of the US. Black and white children have been going to school together for over forty years, but don't let the facts hold you back. Segregation should never ever have happened in the first place, but since the 1960s and 1970s this has been phased out.

I think we need to stick with the facts. The US the last time I checked is in fact a democracy to say otherwise is false.

Errrr i tend to agree with math.

There are indexes which monitor democracies or the essential functions in a democracy (such as media freedom and ownership) how they are performing and whether countries are actually fully democrat in practice.

The US, without fail, performs much much worse than you would expect from its rhetoric and how it views its constitution as sacred. This has got significantly worse in the last 4 years (the uk has also done very poorly).

Democracy isn't just about elections. Its about other things which ensure accountability of power in the interests of the people. So stuff like particularly powerful lobby groups are not indictative of good functioning democracy.

The democratic two party system is not particularly good. Elected judges are really bad.

Lots of reasons to accurately explain why the US isn't the pinnacle of democracy by a long shot.

@Icanseegreenshoots

math You have a low opinion of the US. Black and white children have been going to school together for over forty years, but don't let the facts hold you back. Segregation should never ever have happened in the first place, but since the 1960s and 1970s this has been phased out.

I think we need to stick with the facts. The US the last time I checked is in fact a democracy to say otherwise is false.

This is a post from @AcrossthePond55 - who is a US citizen living in California - from just before the recent election, that explains why you are wrong. @mathanxiety is also very well informed and I believe currently resident in the USA. I suggest you read and absorb what she has to say ver carefully, as she’s probably correct.

This tweet sums it up given Trump has now talked about a peaceful transition of power

'Its taken a riot, 4 deaths, an unexploded IED but Trump seemingly has accepted he lost'

Yes, @Roussette. It started when the media took every word out of the liar's mouth as gospel, beginning with his lies about the inauguration crowds. If only he had been fact-checked by everyone and called out on each and every lie he told, from the very beginning, I believe the country would not be in its present state (and nor would the UK, but let's not do that today) and we would certainly not be seeing this continued denial of the result of a legitimate election, let alone the storming of the Capitol and its curious consequences (I agree about the death of a prominent Democrat being an aim of this insurgency, as mentioned up thread somewhere).

So for the next thread title, I've got "Coup coup ca choo, Mr President" going round in my head.