Coup on Capitol Hill (Trump#117)

[ZZTopGuitarSolo]

The ongoing Trump saga.

Continuing from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4110252-May-Hope-and-History-Rhyme-Trump-116

Also in the picture , the three blokes wearing dungarees in the background, who look like they have turned up to fix something. They don't look like militia, unless there is a specialised dungaree wearing fraternity ( waits to be told there is ). I suppose if you wanted to storm the Capitol building, if everyone turned up on the steps looking like cabletie guy, the police might have re-acted differently, better to surround yourself with a few hundred bobble hat and dungaree wearing, useful idiots ?

@IamTomHanks,
I posted an outline of a few of the security forces both local and federal operating openly in DC and who they answer to at Thu 07-Jan-21 09:31:33.

And fwiw the President and Cabinet do not operate as the British PM and cabinet system do either.

And Pence and McConnell may be furious and may have accept the reality of a Biden presidency before yesterday but they still held put long enough before that to have been part of the problem. If there had been a firmer line earlier maybe it wouldn't have got to the point of Hawley and Cruz etc lodging objections?
Completely agree. I think decent within the chamber was a lot more dangerous and shameful than the decent outside.

Woman who was shot was killed by security forces from the reports ive seen.

The woman who died was 35 and a Trump supporter who had gone to Washington for the rally

 Ashli Babbitt: Trump supporter shot dead in Capitol was Air Force veteran http://news.sky.com/story/ashli-babbitt-trump-supporter-shot-dead-in-capitol-was-air-force-veteran-12181190

Listening to some of the rioters/protestors bellowing they want their country back. Why does this remind me of something... ho hum... this is us

No one wins a war of hearts and minds with insults and calling people idiots

But how can you reason with people that won’t even respect the results of an election?

If I were Biden I would be worried less about love and light of the US speeches,and seriously investigating what the hell happened with the security services, and can he even rely on them now to keep him and others safe?

It should never have got to that point though. Play with fire and you get burnt etc. And Pence and McConnell may be furious and may have accept the reality of a Biden presidency before yesterday but they still held put long enough before that to have been part of the problem. If there had been a firmer line earlier maybe it wouldn't have got to the point of Hawley and Cruz etc lodging objections?

I don't understand why they carried on objecting (and one of the objections got 170 votes, if I heard correctly?) after the mob was removed from the building. Some of the politicians dropped their support, but nowhere near all of them.

It's those people's motivations I don't fully understand; I understand Trump may not be a full picnic basket / desperately trying to keep out of jail, I understand the mob members may be a combination of people who want secession, genuinely believe the election was stolen, people who just like violence etc.

What I don't understand is why a politician - who should clearly be able to see which way the wind is blowing - carries on with a charade that continues to undermine the republic. They aren't unplugged enough to believe the lies, so what do they think they will gain? Re-election in a few years? Do they want secession too? Why hasn't the Republican leadership stamped on this harder in the last 24 hours (or indeed anytime since November)?

I suppose charitably you could say it's 0500 and it's been a long day, but still.

every terrorist group is eventually invited to the table to discuss solutions.

Must have missed those talks with Al Qaeda and ISIS and Boko Haram and all of the people in this list: www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/

I think you mixed up invited to the table with never invited to the table.

And I believe it was the Sinn Fein invited to the table, not the IRA.

@Kendodd

The lack of security around the city did make me wonder how much sympathy there might be within the security services, including leaders, for Trump and the protesters.

I can't imagine that low level of enforcement if the protesters had been black.

It would of been a massacre if the domestic terrorist were black rather than angry sad middle aged men who pine for a life that wasn’t ever real.

The 50’s Manufacturing growth and jobs wouldn’t of happened if Europe hadn’t been raised to the ground in ww2 and if the US hadn’t war profiteered before being forced to join.

@mathanxiety Thanks will look for it. Bit hard to keep up with all the posts.

The only thing surprising about it for me was that it didn't happen sooner. I don't understand how right-wing politicians are surprised to learn that when you tell people their country is being stolen from them that they act like this.

The vast majority of the 105 federal law enforcement agencies have nothing at all to do with policing in Washington DC, @Roussette. I used the figure to show that communication may have been an issue and that the term 'the police' is one that doesn't belong in the US context.

And fwiw the President and Cabinet do not operate as the British PM and cabinet system do either.

I know

@frumpety

Also in the picture , the three blokes wearing dungarees in the background, who look like they have turned up to fix something. They don't look like militia, unless there is a specialised dungaree wearing fraternity ( waits to be told there is ). I suppose if you wanted to storm the Capitol building, if everyone turned up on the steps looking like cabletie guy, the police might have re-acted differently, better to surround yourself with a few hundred bobble hat and dungaree wearing, useful idiots ?

I think its just reflective of Trump's base having a number of different group.

The neonazis are one.

The people who believe conspiracy theories as they dont understand basic principles about how the state works or what powers people have.

@frumpety

Also in the picture , the three blokes wearing dungarees in the background, who look like they have turned up to fix something. They don't look like militia, unless there is a specialised dungaree wearing fraternity ( waits to be told there is ). I suppose if you wanted to storm the Capitol building, if everyone turned up on the steps looking like cabletie guy, the police might have re-acted differently, better to surround yourself with a few hundred bobble hat and dungaree wearing, useful idiots ?

The proud boys incognito maybe?

But how can you reason with people that won’t even respect the results of an election?

Yes. You have the likes of Sidney Powell being sued for defamation after continually saying the Dominion machines were designed to make Biden win (this is a company established 18 years). 70 law suits all thrown out. The SCOTUS not supporting any of Trump's 'the election was stolen from us' etc etc.

Until these people accept the election was fair and legitimate how can you get round a table and discuss?

@Icanseegreenshoots

I tend to save the hysteria for CNN reporters and as per my life's work, I look at both sides kiri

Perhaps consider this: every terrorist group is eventually invited to the table to discuss solutions. It might be after thousands of lives are lost or before, the process is the same. Consider the IRA - eventually there has been to be peace brokered, no matter how strong both sides feel about their particular position.
My view is that the US should aim to take this position sooner rather than later to avoid massive loss of life and irreparable damage to the country.
No one wins a war of hearts and minds with insults and calling people idiots.
Listening is not the same as enabling violence, acknowledging the 'other side' is not the same as condoning. These fixed cemented positions will have to move sometime, so it might be advisable to do so before there is all out civil war that serves nobody.

You're losing me with your insistence that these white supremacists haven't been listened to when they've had their president in power for the last 4 years.

@blueangel19

Were left wing, BLM groups actively discouraged from going because leading voices knew it would be best not to or was there just some collective sense it would be best to stay away? Just curious as I don't know much about how they are organised

Apparently, Biden has ignored BLM since he won the elections and the leader posted in their insta after she sent a letter the day after Biden won the elections so there you go.

It's funny how people keep doing the same thing, expecting a different result each time. People voting because someone has promised the world (as though it's the first time).

What makes them think this politician will honour their campaign "promises" this time?

OK math sorry I didn't understand or read it properly, bit lacking in sleep here!

@allCacacoisfarraige @Jaichangecentfoisdenom

We went on a tour of the Capitol building when we visited in 2019* and you walk past the Speaker's office on the designated usual tour route. Hundreds of tourists were there with us; all they'd need is someone who'd been on a tour before and remembered the way / a bit of blind luck. Everywhere they were shown on TV wandering around was part of the tour so it wouldn't have been difficult for them to stumble across.

Incidentally at the time I remember the security being really tight - they even made me throw my suncream away on a 28C+ day. I can't get over the lack of a security response and the dissonance between that and the BLM response; it's rage-inducing and deeply worrying.

*It was so surreal seeing places we'd been on TV - we ate lunch in the cafeteria shown on the BBC. Mind boggling.

@Icanseegreenshoots

If I were Biden I would be worried less about love and light of the US speeches,and seriously investigating what the hell happened with the security services, and can he even rely on them now to keep him and others safe?

I believe that Biden is already employing a hand picked security team rather than merely transferring to the one Trump has had for this very reason.

I'd definitely read something about this as a concern thats being taken seriously prior to yesterday.

On the subject of police handling of the protesters. I don't have a problem per se with the police treating them gently, taking selfies etc especially those that were milling around and seeming bit carried along by it all. I have no police/security training but to me it seems logical that if you can defuse a situation and get people moved out without violence you should do so (especially in a country where protesters and police are both armed).

The problem I have is with the complete and utter double standards compared with BLM and other protesters. It is now shown that an attack on the Capitol with politicians all gathered there can be handled without multiple shootings and many injuries to unarmed protesters (yes, I am aware there are four deaths but it generally appears calmer than the handling of other protests I've seen recently) so theres no excuse for a gentler approach not to be used in future.

And for anyone trying to claim BLM protesters are somehow different, there is plenty of footage showing individual sheriffs and police officers dealing with protesters in a gentle fashion, photographs and joining etc with successful results. So it's been proven to be possible there too.

You will always have a hard-core who just want to cause harm and chaos who need to be arrested but that doesn't mean you should treat the unarmed, along for a peaceful protest people violently (whatever the protest)

What I don't understand is why a politician - who should clearly be able to see which way the wind is blowing - carries on with a charade that continues to undermine the republic. They aren't unplugged enough to believe the lies, so what do they think they will gain? Re-election in a few years? Do they want secession too? Why hasn't the Republican leadership stamped on this harder in the last 24 hours (or indeed anytime since November)?

Very good questions.