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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

566 replies

Norfolker · 04/01/2021 13:13

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

OP posts:
HeyGirlHeyBoy · 06/01/2021 18:17

Absobleedinlutely! It comes across as making a point of not getting in touch. I have had this with my Bil and his wife. They're dead to me now.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 06/01/2021 18:18

Ha ha, I would love to have a base cois farraige Wink but yes can see the downsides!

Danu2021 · 06/01/2021 18:32

Education is valued here that is for sure. As another person (like the Australian mentioned upthread) I've struggled to find jobs with just experience and no degree. I feel it's really haunted me. I don't think ''be more Irish'' would be serious advice to an Australian though. I'm sorry but I think that was misconstrued. There is racism but you're certainly allowed to be Australian. The competition for jobs is fierce though. Maybe that woman was up against somebody who had the qualifications and the experience. I've always been told quite bluntly there were better candidates.

choli · 06/01/2021 18:53

Class is a thing in Ireland but a different type of thing to England. My mother (from a poor Catholic family) clearly remembers that the kids of the more well-off, “respectable” families sat up the front of class, got treated as favourites by the nuns teaching her.
I'm in my 50s and this was a definite thing in my small country town in both primary and secondary schools. The children of farmers were treated a lot better than the children from the council houses.

LadyEloise · 06/01/2021 19:03

My grandaunt told me that as a child of small farmers she was looked down on by the townies, at school in a small country town.
It really impacted her confidence.
Thankfully she rose above it and did well materially in life. She was a very kind and generous woman and shared what she had.
There was a real sense of knowing your place in society. I'm not sure that has been eliminated but it has been minimised somewhat.

Cacacoisfarraige · 06/01/2021 19:03

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drsambeckett · 06/01/2021 19:09

My mother would have said this about her convent school. The poor girls that couldn’t afford uniforms or to pay for their lunches had to clean the classrooms after lessons had finished as payment. So much for charity.

Cacacoisfarraige · 06/01/2021 19:09

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 06/01/2021 19:11

Yes I have heard that about orphans or children from the laundries Sad

I had heard that in Australia experience trumps all whereas here it's qualification first and then experience. Australia makes more common sense really but that's our system, as such.

NothingICanDo · 06/01/2021 19:18

Gaeltacht summers are probably quite a middle class thing
Definitely not. We would have gone to school in a very working class(poor if you like) area and every school offered three weeks in the gealtacht.

choli · 06/01/2021 19:28

I had heard that in Australia experience trumps all whereas here it's qualification first and then experience. Australia makes more common sense really but that's our system, as such.
I no longer live in Ireland but when I did it seemed to be who you know first, all else second.

MarDhea · 06/01/2021 19:45

I'm Irish and have worked at Irish and overseas universities for years, but I remember when I came back to work at an Irish university after years working in England that I realised my phone manner when dealing with HR or payroll etc had become more formal and demand-focused, and that, while I was being perfectly polite, I was saying hello and moving immediate to whatever I needed and appeared unfriendly by the norms of the institution, and had to consciously adjust my approach. Sometimes someone who is either from somewhere else, or just used to the style of somewhere else, needs a nudge towards local norms I certainly did.

Oh this in spades! Took me a while to click back into Irish norms of roundabout chit chat before you move onto whatever work issue made you pick up the phone or call into an office. It's important to ask about Mary's day and discuss the amazing/atrocious weather; and (if you're talking face to face) maybe ask about her daughter and is she finished her nursing placement yet and sure the commute must be hard on her...Grin

Irish culture is pretty indirect and implicit, in some ways the polar opposite of the very direct Dutch culture.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 06/01/2021 19:58

Schools offered Gaeltacht? As in, paid for it?? Thta was pretty amazing. I went but yes myself and one other that summer, not widespread. Many wouldn't have gone near it tbf.

Cacacoisfarraige · 06/01/2021 20:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 06/01/2021 20:13

I went to a 'state school', (a 'Community School') way back in the late 70s, early 80s, then on to university.

University was not the choice of most of the kids at the school at the time and still isn't, but I am not sure this is an appropriate way to measure the performance of a school. As an example of a non-university route to a satisfying career, I can show you this example, featuring a guy I went to school with:
www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/first-encounters-dylan-bradshaw-and-paul-foley-1.1638557

The school I went to has changed quite a bit in the almost 50 years since. Of my friends who still live in the catchment, I can't think of any who have sent their own kids there. There are a few reasons for this, including preference of partners for another school and ease of getting kids to school in the morning if the trip to work is in another direction. However, it isn't what it used to be academically. That being said, about a quarter of students head off to university or the equivalent every year. (Including one student to the Royal College of Surgeons two years ago, Hatstrategicallydipped - I was impressed because it is hard to get into).

Way back then, we had very little sex education, but we definitely had some. Two girls from my year got pg before leaving school. A few who didn't go to university had babies a year or two after the Leaving Cert but had been involved in relationships with their partners for a few years by that point. Most are still with their partners, have homes of their own, families..

From what she’s told me the boys from Blackrock all think they’re god’s gift to mankind.
LOL, YYY, twas ever the case. Clearly, 'plus ça change'.
(Though the girls I knew in university from Mount Anville and Alex were among the nicest.)

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque, I agree much was known about the camps and the Holocaust, but at government level only; the general public were not informed, hence the shock of the soldiers who stumbled upon the camps. One of those soldiers was an uncle of mine who was a nephew of an Irish government minister of the time. My uncle was an officer, an engineer. He retired from military service after his military experience ended a few km south of Bergen Belsen.

I know that the common narrative around education is that Irish is best. Tbh, I am sick of this. I don’t think we compare like with like as there are so many good UK institutions that exist outside of the cities that few in the Irish communities really experience.

I completely disagree with the idea that good schools outside of Dublin are few and far between. This may have been true back in the 1960s but it isn't now. I also disagree with your contention that girls study nursing and boys go to an ag college and then back to the farm, that that this is the expected route for most boys and girls.

I disagree because it is clear that somebody is applying for and being admitted to over 40,000 third level places offered in Ireland annually, and those places are not all in nursing or ag (though I also take issue with the implied disparagement of the ag area, in which there are enormous opportunities, all requiring some specialised ed).
In 2019, 57k students sat the LC, and 50k were offered third level places.

I also disagree because the 2018 PISA rankings objectively disprove your opinion.

The key findings of the 2018 assessments include:

  • Ireland ranks 4th out of 36 OECD countries and 3rd out of 27 EU countries for reading literacy

  • Ireland ranks 8th out of 77 countries/regions involved in PISA 2018 for reading literacy[1]

  • in reading, Ireland has significantly fewer low-performing students (11.8% below level 2) and significantly more high performers (12.1% at levels 5 and 6) than the OECD average

  • PISA results show the difference in performance between schools in Ireland is lower than the OECD

  • in Ireland, the difference between schools in student performance in reading literacy is less than half of what it is, on average, across OECD countries[2]

  • post-primary schools in Ireland can therefore be considered relatively equitable, as well as having above average performance in the three assessment domains

  • Ireland has a lower percentage of low-performing students in all three domains than on average across OECD countries

  • girls perform better than boys in reading, with a difference of 23.2 score points[3]

  • Ireland’s performance in science and mathematics has remained relatively stable – above the OECD average scores – between 2015 and 2018 cycles

  • girls perform slightly better than boys in science but the results are not considered statistically significant

  • in science, students ranked 17th out of 37 OECD countries, 11th out of 28 EU countries and 22nd out of 78 participating countries/regions

  • Ireland has a lower than average number of low performing students in science

  • in mathematics, Irish students ranked 16th out of 37 OECD countries and 21st out of 78 participating countries/regions

  • Ireland has a lower than average number of low performing students in maths

www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f6e114-major-international-study-finds-irelands-students-among-top-performe/

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 07/01/2021 00:00

@mathanxiety

I was quoting another poster regarding girls/nursing/boys/ag college.

We just have such a range of school types in the UK that there is so much variation in standards/curriculum/ now. Free schools/academies/private/public/church/comprehensives and I don’t think we have the same consistency across the board with methodologies/training - I think the training varies.

Eggcorns · 07/01/2021 00:09

@MarDhea

I'm Irish and have worked at Irish and overseas universities for years, but I remember when I came back to work at an Irish university after years working in England that I realised my phone manner when dealing with HR or payroll etc had become more formal and demand-focused, and that, while I was being perfectly polite, I was saying hello and moving immediate to whatever I needed and appeared unfriendly by the norms of the institution, and had to consciously adjust my approach. Sometimes someone who is either from somewhere else, or just used to the style of somewhere else, needs a nudge towards local norms I certainly did.

Oh this in spades! Took me a while to click back into Irish norms of roundabout chit chat before you move onto whatever work issue made you pick up the phone or call into an office. It's important to ask about Mary's day and discuss the amazing/atrocious weather; and (if you're talking face to face) maybe ask about her daughter and is she finished her nursing placement yet and sure the commute must be hard on her...Grin

Irish culture is pretty indirect and implicit, in some ways the polar opposite of the very direct Dutch culture.

Exactly this! I was retrospectively mortified at what have must come across as rude over-directness but I had to consciously settle myself back into the conversational approach to asking someone to do something. And I had a Dutch doctoral student who needed a few pointers about her ‘directness’ in seminars...

I’m still surprised at @PenelopePunt’s experience of not making Irish friends at Irish universities. I have had no less than four overseas doctoral students marry Irish people and settle here, and lots of my foreign-born Ireland-based friends arrived as junior academics or postgrads. More recently, a friend took up an academic job here just this year and was taken aback at all the invitations, offers of practical help etc from colleagues and neighbours.

sammylady37 · 07/01/2021 05:38

I’m surprised at people saying the Royal College of Surgeons is hard to get into. When I was a medical student in a different college, over 20 years ago, the standing joke was that the medical degree from RCSI was purely a receipt as all you needed to do to get it was pay the high fees as it didn’t have the same points requirement as the other colleges. I thought that it had since become part of the CAO system and that those fees were abolished, but I’m out of the loop really do could be wrong on that.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2021 06:32

Wrt RCSI admission -

in 2020 Irish Leaving Certificate or equivalent points (for students who successfully entered the RCSI Medicine programme) ranged from 554 to 625 and HPAT-Ireland scores ranged from 168 to 207. The combined HPAT and points score required for admission to the Undergraduate Medicine programme in 2020 was 733.

For UCD:
The minimum points at which anyone was admitted were 555 (which required HPAT of at least 186)
The minimum HPAT score at which anyone was admitted was 171 (which required at least 621 points)

The RCSI admitted a lot of foreign applicants in decades past, perhaps making it harder for Leaving Cert applicants to get in.

www.rcsi.com/dublin/undergraduate/medicine/fees-and-funding
Fees ^

MadameMiggeldy · 07/01/2021 07:11

We just have such a range of school types in the UK that there is so much variation in standards/curriculum/ now. Free schools/academies/private/public/church/comprehensives and I don’t think we have the same consistency across the board with methodologies/training - I think the training varies

I can’t directly compare the pedagogical input across all of the teacher training colleges - but I will say ROI doesn’t have the massive idealogical differences between school types (most primaries - broadly similar, most secondaries - broadly similar). AFAIK there is no school type where there is no actual requirement to have a qualified teacher in the room. That’s quite different to England where cover supervisors , unqualified staff, HLTAs are established grades. Open to correction but I don’t think there is a legal requirement to have a teacher (ie QTS) in Academies or Free Schools.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2021 08:12

From www.joe.ie/life-style/top-performing-fee-paying-non-fee-paying-schools-ireland-575368

Non fee-paying schools with the highest percentage of students in third level from 2009-2016.

Coláiste Íosagáin (Dublin) - 100%
Laurel Hill (Limerick) - 99%
Coláiste Eoin (Dublin) - 99%
Cólaiste an Phiarsaigh (Cork) - 98%
Jesus and Mary Secondary School (Galway) - 98%
Coláiste an Spioraid Naoimh (Cork) - 98%
Ard Scoil Iognáid Rís (Limerick) - 97%
Coláiste na Coiribe (Galway) - 97%
St Kieran's (Kilkenny) - 97%
St Gerald's College (Mayo) - 97%
Tempeleogue College (Dublin) - 97%
St Macartan's (Monaghan) - 96%
Muckross Park (Dublin) - 96%
Presentation Secondary School (Kerry) - 96%
Knocklyon Community School (Dublin) - 95%
Ursuline Secondary School (Tipperary) - 95%
Tralee Community School (Kerry) - 95%
Loreto Convent (Wexford) - 95%

Some of these schools are single sex and privately run by religious orders. Some are community schools.

Funding of secondary schools in Ireland is a funny old bird.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2021 08:36

Your own stats demonstrate that your school was far from average! Unless you're suggesting that most Irish school pupils will go on to be barristers and suchlike, with practically no-one left to empty the bins, ort work in retail, care, gardening, transport...etc.?

Your stats indicate the demographic of students attending the school (middle class, with engaged, interested parents) rather than anything spectacularly different about Irish education.

My list of non-fee paying schools is directed @HavelockVetinari

My own community school year saw about one third of the students who started out with me leave after the Inter Cert, with two thirds doing the LC. A really striking proportion of those who went to university ended up with PhDs and staying in academia, but there are many with science, engineering, business, and arts degrees, and two doctors.

PenelopePunt · 07/01/2021 12:40

@Eggcorns It’s a bit of a running joke in our expats group that “Let’s catch up for coffee” is Irish for goodbye It isn’t that the locals (and I’m not just talking about the university environment) are rude or unfriendly, they’re just disinterested. Another friend did her Masters here, and said her classes were about 45% Irish / 55% foreign, and she made one Irish friend and half a dozen non Irish friends. I think it can depend somewhat on your nationality too, as some are seen as less desirable than others. Americans are very popular.

Eggcorns · 07/01/2021 12:54

[quote PenelopePunt]@Eggcorns It’s a bit of a running joke in our expats group that “Let’s catch up for coffee” is Irish for goodbye It isn’t that the locals (and I’m not just talking about the university environment) are rude or unfriendly, they’re just disinterested. Another friend did her Masters here, and said her classes were about 45% Irish / 55% foreign, and she made one Irish friend and half a dozen non Irish friends. I think it can depend somewhat on your nationality too, as some are seen as less desirable than others. Americans are very popular.[/quote]
That was absolutely my experience in village England (though not in Oxford or London, where I also lived longterm, and where I made English friends, though those friendships took longer than friendships with fellow-foreigners), where I felt everyone was dug into the same friends they had made at school, and weren't interested in incomers.

Are you in Dublin? Because my personal experiences of foreign postgrads/academics integrating very thoroughly and permanently and/or marrying Irish people (and me making foreign-born friends) have been in Galway and Cork, though the recently-arrived friend who has already made lots of friendships is in Dublin.

PenelopePunt · 07/01/2021 12:57

Sorry, I feel I’ve taken this a bit far off topic. I do think there is a class system in Ireland, but it’s not as entrenched or obvious as perhaps the U.K. The higher education system is certainly one marker, the city / culchie (sp?) is another, and in Dublin, certainly the Northside / Southside divide followed by the suburb. One Irish friend (we do have some!) uses her ILs Glasnevin address rather than her own address as while most address systems record her as living in Finglas, Google maps puts her estate in Ballymun.