How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque thanks, please do share, that sounds really interesting. (I am inclined to half-agree as I think one of the greater disparities between pre- and post-Vietnam conflicts was the involvement of the media and just how much information was widely disseminated to the public. Some people knew, of course they did, because the information got out along with the messengers, but that is not the same as "widely known" and a huge amount was kept under wraps at the time. I don't suppose Churchill was at a podium with a bunch of flowcharts and data every night during the crisis!)

Here is the best link I can find atm

auschwitz.org/en/history/informing-the-world/the-role-of-the-polish-government-in-exile

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

There is another site that details how so much info was intentionally kept out of the public sphere so yes, propaganda at work certainly but I do think there were plenty of diplomatic figures that knew and some tried to work their best within their sphere of influence (the Japanese ambassador who arranged passports), the Scandinavian countries that sent their Jewish communities to a boat off the coast of Norway?. I think Bulgaria refused to disclose the information Germany needed to identify their Jewish population.

The book I referred to is archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/black-ibm.html

IBM and the Holocaust. It details precisely the process that Hitler employed to build the Wannsee document. He ordered teams to go through census records, church records, etc across Europe building family trees. Many families had converted generations before - some didn’t know they had Jewish ancestry. It was forensic work and he laid out a complex system for each person to identify exactly where their ancestors came from. He wanted to take Judaism out at the ‘root’ - as he saw it. The book details how this background work really was undertaken. He identified how many Jewish people in each area then wrote it up into a list known as the Wannsee conference document. Each country with its number next to it. Ireland 2000 Jews, I think it said. It is when you see that document you get a sense of how this was intentional, known and only possible with the compliance of others.

Sorry Ireland 4000

My sister in law grew up in Dublin and has told me some funny stories about the legendary bitchiness of the girls from Alexandra and Mount Anville. From what she’s told me the boys from Blackrock all think they’re god’s gift to mankind. So entertaining to hear her stories.

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

The interesting thing for me was that IBM facilitated this for Germany - the book details how. IBM America wanted to distance itself from events in Europe once they knew reports were coming out internationally and pressure was on them to maintain their public image so they set up a subsidiary arm, IBM Europe to deal directly with Germany.

In order to write the book, the author must have used the IBM archives.

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

An academic link

www.cambridge.org/core/books/auschwitz-the-allies-and-censorship-of-the-holocaust/polish-government-in-exile-in-london/6B9E1548EA622B184B5C5DB853AEEB88

Just hopping on the thread to give a Northern Irish perspective. Like everywhere, NI has a wee class structure, so it does. Even the capital city has different classes!

Paddy Raff (a comedian from working class Catholic BT11, West Belfast) takes it off very well with his character of Protestant Nigel from BT9 (Lisburn and Malone Road - posh areas).

I've visited Ireland a fair bit and the things I've noticed are:
Children coming out of school at 1.30 and really long school holidays. I'm not sure if this is an accurate observation or something like the schools in the UK that don't have school one afternoon a week. If it is a general thing, then I've no idea how they fit in all the education, but they do seem to.

More obvious nepotism than in the UK middle classes. I know it's rife in UK upper classes, old boys network etc, but not in the circle I have access to in the UK. Where as people in equivalent circumstances to me in Ireland seem to need to know the right people to get jobs. Again, may just be the subset of people I mix with.

Greater interest in grooming - or example I was really surprised to find that people went for a blow dry before a funeral in Ireland. Again, a one off observation on the Irish side and maybe I don't go to the right funerals in the UK.

I'd be interested to know if these are really Irish things.

@justajot my son's secondary finishes at one in a Wednesday. The idea is that any planned sporting matches can be done and not affect the academic week. Junior infants and senior infants finish at 2.10. other primary is 3.10 secondary usually finished at 3.45 to 4.00 pm.

Never ever heard of anyone getting a blow dry for a funeral. I think uk funerals are more formal. Most people don't wear black only very immediate family.

My junior infants go home at 1:30. So that's probably what you saw. Plenty of time for an education. I can't understand how the kids in the UK stay in so late mine are wrecked by one and they are all 5 turning 6.

I went to school in the uk with a very large amount of Irish children and lots of Irish teachers as well ( catholic school). I can tell you now there is most definitely a class system among the Irish and the vast amount of inverted snobbery that goes with it!!!

In N Ireland (or certainly the part I live in) school finishes at 2pm for the first three years, and after that it moves to 3pm. I've never heard anyone even query it, so it was a shock to me when I first started using Mumsnet and saw that people expected their 4 year olds to do full days at school.

Agree with the last two posters. And I think people treat funerals far less formally and funeral-going is a far more ordinary and regular event for most Irish people, so I don’t think your relatives getting a blow dry is particularly ordinary. I’m certainly always taken aback with the soul-searching on Mn about what to wear, how to behave etc, whether to bring children.

@wewillmeetagain

I went to school in the uk with a very large amount of Irish children and lots of Irish teachers as well ( catholic school). I can tell you now there is most definitely a class system among the Irish and the vast amount of inverted snobbery that goes with it!!!

Why is your experience in the UK relevant to a discussion of class in Ireland?

Am I hallucinating or are the schools not going back until 1st February now. Give me strength. And wine.

@Danu2021

Am I hallucinating or are the schools not going back until 1st February now. Give me strength. And wine.

Looks like it.

@Piglet89

Just hopping on the thread to give a Northern Irish perspective. Like everywhere, NI has a wee class structure, so it does. Even the capital city has different classes!

Paddy Raff (a comedian from working class Catholic BT11, West Belfast) takes it off very well with his character of Protestant Nigel from BT9 (Lisburn and Malone Road - posh areas).

When I was in Belfast to see the titanic exhibition a few years ago, I saw so many people with either a tricolor or a union jack as a phone cover. I thought, wow, tell the world you're working class why don't you! :-p

@wewillmeetagain

I went to school in the uk with a very large amount of Irish children and lots of Irish teachers as well ( catholic school). I can tell you now there is most definitely a class system among the Irish and the vast amount of inverted snobbery that goes with it!!!

Not to be rude but it's a bit cheeky to be telling actual Irish people who've been born and raised here about our snobbery. We can figure it out for ourselves like. And FWiW, I went to a fancy enough (although outside of Dublin, not fee paying) school and my daughter went to school in Dublin 4 for a while (Dublin 4 being pretty much the poshest place in the country). I can't ever recall being treated worse than the next guy who was a professor at university.

Danu2021

When I was in Belfast to see the titanic exhibition a few years ago, I saw so many people with either a tricolor or a union jack as a phone cover. I thought, wow, tell the world you're working class why don't you! :-p

Danu, Whereabouts are you from?

Through my work I have dealt with many high end managers and CEOs of foreign companies who relocate to Ireland - mainly north america or asian who virtually all say they rate the Irish education system as one of the best for the broad education offered. All who sit the leaving cert exam have a good knowledge range of at least 6 different subjects studied at either ordinary or higher level. I know that I wouldn't have been happy for any of my children to give up core subjects at 15/16 to concentrate on just 3 subjects for A level. As they natured, they changed their study preferences and interests that they would have cut off many university courses if they had taken the English route imo.

2 of mine went to gaelcholaiste having previously gone to english language primaries. It wasn't snob or class based decision - it was recommended by teachers & they benefited from the extra academic challenge. They both had special needs kids in their year - as well as new immigrates. The idea that parents are using gaelcholaiste as a means to avoid certain types of student is certainly not true in my case.

The extra points in the leaving cert are not sufficient to persuade someone to study through Irish if it's not your first language imo. The extra points are only in certain subjects, and you only get the extra points as a sliding scale percentage of missed points - eg if u get 75% in the exam, you can get a small percentage boost of the 25% u missed. Secondly, studying higher maths or physics is hard in any language but trying to find qualified teachers is extremely difficult so many students are having to virtually study through english textbooks and then translate for the purposes of their exams. A few extra points are justified I feel.

Interesting thread.

We are in the middle of a pandemic, is this all you have to worry about?

Sorry OP. IABU, ignore me.

@InsertRudeWord

Sorry OP. IABU, ignore me.

Hope you're ok.

@Justajot

I've visited Ireland a fair bit and the things I've noticed are: Children coming out of school at 1.30 and really long school holidays. I'm not sure if this is an accurate observation or something like the schools in the UK that don't have school one afternoon a week. If it is a general thing, then I've no idea how they fit in all the education, but they do seem to.

More obvious nepotism than in the UK middle classes. I know it's rife in UK upper classes, old boys network etc, but not in the circle I have access to in the UK. Where as people in equivalent circumstances to me in Ireland seem to need to know the right people to get jobs. Again, may just be the subset of people I mix with.

Greater interest in grooming - or example I was really surprised to find that people went for a blow dry before a funeral in Ireland. Again, a one off observation on the Irish side and maybe I don't go to the right funerals in the UK.

I'd be interested to know if these are really Irish things.

I have no idea if it's 'an Irish thing' but as it happens I did get my hair done before my father's funeral. I hadn't got it done for about a year beforehand. Is that ok or still worthy of looking down on? What a load of utter shit.