How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

@Justajot

I've visited Ireland a fair bit and the things I've noticed are: Children coming out of school at 1.30 and really long school holidays. I'm not sure if this is an accurate observation or something like the schools in the UK that don't have school one afternoon a week. If it is a general thing, then I've no idea how they fit in all the education, but they do seem to.

More obvious nepotism than in the UK middle classes. I know it's rife in UK upper classes, old boys network etc, but not in the circle I have access to in the UK. Where as people in equivalent circumstances to me in Ireland seem to need to know the right people to get jobs. Again, may just be the subset of people I mix with.

Greater interest in grooming - or example I was really surprised to find that people went for a blow dry before a funeral in Ireland. Again, a one off observation on the Irish side and maybe I don't go to the right funerals in the UK.

I'd be interested to know if these are really Irish things.

Don't mean to be rude, but this comes across as someone coming over observing the natives and taking notes with amusement. We are who we are, we make no apologies for it, no matter how odd or different or quaint anyone else might find it. And to be perfectly honest, English (I'm assuming) people really shouldn't make assumptions about us unless they have direct experience. And even then, not really. We're not all the the same, like London Vs Manchester.

How much homework do Irish schools give? I have a P4 & a P2, standard state school & they get reading, spellings & 5 maths questions every night. 20 to 30 minutes maximum

That sounds similar. Rule of thumb for me is 2nd class 20mins, 3rd class 30 mins etc.

Class is a thing in Ireland but a different type of thing to England. My mother (from a poor Catholic family) clearly remembers that the kids of the more well-off, “respectable” families sat up the front of class, got treated as favourites by the nuns teaching her. Obviously it’s a lot different in schools now, but roots of what class means in Ireland can be traced back to the post-independence era where it was about how close you were to the Catholic Church, your standing in the community etc. A time in which people could be publicly shamed by the local priest - and sometimes were, such as a story from my grandparents about individuals being called out on Sundays for bringing home “french letters” from the UK.

It is not like that now but there are some “class”markers still based on the family you come from, how respected you are in the area, have ties to the local GAA club, donates to local institutions, the age of the car you drive. It isn’t based on old aristocratic markers but more on material wealth. Different to the UK where it is more based on an almost ingrained snobbery based on a hierarchy everyone seems to know instinctively. I love both countries but both have had different issues in this regard.

There is much more expectation for kids from whatever background to go onto third level education. The class hang ups about schools and unis isn’t there. Universities are far fewer in number but are pretty much all great, and the ITs are fantastic for more practically minded third level education. Unis are very active in their local areas. Unlike UK where Oxbridge is the aspiration, all unis are pretty much well regarded. TCD is the oldest and has a more “elite” badge internationally, but outside Dublin I don’t see it as being aspired to in the same way by the most academic kids who are just as likely to put UCC, UCG, UCD etc as their first choices (which are also excellent) - a lot of it is judged by specific course and location (and a lot opt for the uni most local to where they come from), which I think is a lot better than the pressure to get to a Russell Group uni or whatever.

School was, and still remains, strict - I remember getting yelled at in front of everyone for not having a cover to protect my coursebook! - and you have to buy all your books which can be a struggle for poorer families at secondary level (although sometimes you can get donated second hand ones). I remember getting lines as punishment for “forgetting” an expensive science course book, when I was actually too embarrassed to say in front of everyone that we were waiting for my mum’s payday to buy it.... The points system, for its benefits, is also unforgiving and puts a lot of pressure based on final exams that can dictate the course of your young adult life. I know more than one person who broke down in their first exam due to the pressure. Not a lot of that has changed per my younger relatives.

There was pretty much zero sex education (that could’ve changed since the 90s, though) and a relatively high number of kids (considering it was a small school) in my year got pregnant. I have fond memories and was educated well, but also remember more negative sides of the system too.

@Norfolker

How much homework do Irish schools give? I have a P4 & a P2, standard state school & they get reading, spellings & 5 maths questions every night. 20 to 30 minutes maximum

We moved back to Ireland from England mid-year, so DS moved from the middle of Year 3 at a C of E village school to the middle of second class at an ET. Other than starting Irish from scratch, the big difference was homework. At his old school, other than an expectation that they would read at home regularly and a weekly spelling test, the only homework was set at weekends, whereas at his new school, there was homework in English, Irish and Maths nightly, except for weekends.

Children coming out of school at 1.30 and really long school holidays.

Primary school days are fixed nationally as 5 hours and 40 mins, and can be an hour shorter for infant classes (first 2 years of primary) if the school wishes. One school might run from 9:20 - 3pm (2pm for infants) while another might run from 8:30 - 2:10 (1:10 for infants). You could see 5-6 year olds leaving school at 1:10 if the school keeps those hours.

Secondaries don't have fixed hours but generally run from around 9-4 with a half day once a week, or some have no half day but keep shorter hours like 8:45 - 3:30.

The school year in primary has a fixed number of days, where summer holidays last from end June to end Aug in primary, and start June to end Aug in secondary.

More obvious nepotism than in the UK middle classes. I know it's rife in UK upper classes, old boys network etc, but not in the circle I have access to in the UK. Where as people in equivalent circumstances to me in Ireland seem to need to know the right people to get jobs. Again, may just be the subset of people I mix with.

Not my experience. I have seen it happen in small family companies from the building / construction trade to accountancy firms, where family members fill openings, but not in most companies or the public sector.

I would say that there is a general cultural preference for personal over impersonal contacts. For example, all else being equal, a job applicant that is known in some way (and comes across well) will often have the edge for shortlisting over an applicant that is only known via the application. It might just be a case of having met the person a few months ago, or them having phoned to ask questions about the job, etc.: any personal contact is better than none. It wouldn't apply to jobs advertised in huge companies but is common enough in other domains. It's an informal referencing system - people want to know if someone is sound, a decent human being, etc. when considering them for a job.

In my experience, compared to the UK, phone/WhatsApp calls and talking to people face to face is much more important for getting things done than emails or other remote contacts. This holds for everything from navigating officialdom and arranging medical treatment to applying for jobs and finding someone to cut your lawn.

Greater interest in grooming - or example I was really surprised to find that people went for a blow dry before a funeral in Ireland.

I've never heard of this and I've been to a lot of funerals in Ireland (as most Irish people have).

In fact, you'd get some funny looks if you turned up to a funeral having obviously just stepped out of a salon.

I'd be interested to know if these are really Irish things.

Not really, apart from some of the school stuff.

I have seen "chief mourners" in my local hair salon getting a blow dry before the funeral. Pre covid obviously.
Possibly the days before the funeral have been fraught and they want to scrub up well and do the deceased proud and if it helps them through their grief......

Sorry I agree, I am Irish, and maybe not as much with the younger people but I know a lot of older women would get their hair blow-dried before a funeral, including my own mam, not because she is anyway vain, she just isn't great at doing her hair and at a funeral you meet so many people you haven't seen in years and then everyone usually goes back to a hotel or pub so she would want to look her best, I don't really see anything wrong with it, whatever makes you happy.

Got mine done before particularly tricky funeral. Armour. Between the removal and the service you’re ‘on display’ to potentially hundreds. I felt I could compose myself better if I felt I looked ok.

We got sex ed, early 90s, in primary and secondary. Totally understand a blow-dry before a funeral but never heard of it as a thing. I remember my mum commenting on our cousin's 'lovely coats' at their mum's funerals and I made sure I dressed well at hers... I would say, generally, behaviour maybe better in Irish schools? Don't know if that's right or wrong. Friends I know who've worked in the UK have not liked it.

Teachers I mean.

I’m an Australian living in Dublin and work in one of the universities as a researcher / mid level management role. I certainly see an element of snobbery. I’ve been present at interview boards and heard colleagues pick apart applicants for being from the wrong place or having the wrong university name on their CV. One applicant had a First in his Honours degree from Cork Institute of Technology but was passed over in favour of a less experienced applicant with a Pass degree from UCD as ‘an IT degree isn’t a real degree, it’s the same as a Dilpoma’ and no amount of information from HR would change the board’s opinion. The wife of a friend, who works at a different university, was told “You need to be more Irish if you want to move forward”. We lived in Coolock for a while and were asked if we saw the guards every night in our estate. Few of our colleagues have friends that aren’t Irish, it’s almost like we’re the token foreigners if we’re invited to anything. I’ve had to speak up when I’ve heard derogatory comments about Eastern European’s only being good for cleaning or working in Lidl. I think programmes like Room to Improve feed a certain snobbery which encourages some but not all to perceive themselves as being part or not part of a class. But the pursuit of education is definitely a big marker in supporting the arrogance. My cousin was an EA who supported VPs and CEOs in Australia and London (for very well known companies like Microsoft, Telstra and Barclays) but couldn’t get a high level role here as she had started as an office junior and worked her way up. She didn’t have a degree, just two decades of experience. They’re back in Oz and she’s an EA again at Channel 9. Growing up in an ‘Aussie Battler’ environment, it’s funny but horrible.

PenelopePunt

Thanks for that.
I value input from 'outsiders' on us Irish as it sometimes paints a different picture. Being a native, we probably have different experiences of Ireland than the casual outside perspective where they can judge us objectively.

I have no doubt that immigrants have a different experience of life in Ireland than the Irish born and bred.

Immigration into our country is relatively new for us. We are more likely to be emmigrants.

Or emigrants even

The wife of a friend, who works at a different university, was told “You need to be more Irish if you want to move forward”.

Given that it's an impossibility for someone who isn't Irish to 'turn Irish', might that not have been a clumsily expressed or misunderstood piece of advice about a clashing work 'manner'?

Xenophobia, alas, is everywhere.

I'm Irish and have worked at Irish and overseas universities for years, but I remember when I came back to work at an Irish university after years working in England that I realised my phone manner when dealing with HR or payroll etc had become more formal and demand-focused, and that, while I was being perfectly polite, I was saying hello and moving immediate to whatever I needed and appeared unfriendly by the norms of the institution, and had to consciously adjust my approach. Sometimes someone who is either from somewhere else, or just used to the style of somewhere else, needs a nudge towards local norms-- I certainly did.

And I think your colleagues have been very unlucky -- Irish universities in my experience are cultural mixing-pots. An English friend of mine who arrived at the start of this academic year has been overwhelmed at how ready to help her and socialise her new colleagues were, even in Covid times. She had several Christmas invitations from people she met for the first time in September.

I think you’re right. The Irish have been historically the outsiders and have had to conform or been discriminated against. It’s natural that when they have the opportunity to create, establish or maintain their own hierarchical structure, they will hold on to it and defend it.

@PenelopePunt your observations are v interesting to me as I work with academics from both universities & institutes of technology in Ireland. I am Irish. I have sat on interview panels but have not encountered discrimination regarding where graduates have attended college.

I too echo @Eggcorns thoughts that your friends have been unlucky. In my experience Irish universities are v multicultural & I have numerous friends & colleagues who are from other countries. One such US academic friend relocated to Ireland from the UK with his partner & adopted child & is so happy here & v accepted (gay couple, child different ethnicity) so much so that they've bought a house & are planning to settle here. They left the UK city they'd been living in as they were experiencing a lot of homophobia & latterly racism with their dc. And that surprised me.

I have spent time working in academia in Australia. It was a relatively short time as was for a specific research project. During this time I invited a number of people I'd met through the university to dinner in my apartment including a South American professor from another department. I introduced him to a number of his colleagues from other departments & was surprised that although they'd overlapped & knew each other to see they'd never actually spoken.
He told be afterwards that although he'd been working there over 2 years by that stage he'd never been invited to anyone's house in that time & he was v appreciative to have been invited by me since I didn't know him that well. To me it was perfectly normal but he was so grateful! So I guess you find these sorts of experiences wherever you go.

There are two sides to Ireland I think. I wish we were all lovely, but unfortunately we're not.

A success story.

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/student-who-came-to-ireland-from-syria-with-little-english-gets-602-leaving-cert-points-1.3990071

Something we should be ashamed of

www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-breaks-out-again-at-proposed-leitrim-asylum-centre-1.3790373

I am so proud of being Irish, but sometimes we seem like the backwards idiots that we've been stereotyped as being.

Another success story for a Syrian refugee in Ireland here

www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0917/1165718-suaad-alshleh/

If anyone knows anything about medicine - the Royal College of Surgeons is virtually impossible to get into. To get a bursary?

So there is good and bad in Ireland. Definitely. And I hate admitting that. But we could do better I think.

On the funerals thing, Irish funerals happen very quickly after a death and are usually well attended. When I lived in England a colleague's mother died. I tried to organise a wreath and who was going but found that it wasn't the done thing and no one asked if the colleague was ok when she came back. The death just wasn't acknowledged. This happened frequently over my years there, death and funerals and grieving is very much behind closed doors. In Ireland the chief mourners are pampered and turned out looking well because all and sundry turn up to shake your hand and express their condolences (pre covid). Then theres generally an 'afters' in a local pub where theres soup and sandwiches put on and teas and coffee. Family members and friends and neighbours who might not have seen each other in years swap stories, often of youthful mischief. People will stop the bereaved on the street to sympathise if they didn't make it to the funeral. Ask how they are, if they've lost someone in similar circumstances will mention it and generally no one is really just left to it.

I have to say I feel so much for people who haven't been able to grieve in that way this year.. We had what my dc calls 'Granny' s Goodbye Party*, people queued at our door to come in, people take days off work and travel etc, it means so much. The meal and chat afterwards all so supportive to the grieving family. Likewise, if people don't acknowledge a death it is seen as a v personal slight.

@caperplips See, we’ve experienced the opposite in reverse. I’ve been here seven years, my friend ten years, and have not seen any of the Irish socially outside of work. Certainly other non-Irish colleagues, and the year before last it was a big topic across our Christmas table; with 12 people, seven nationalities and mostly non academic, very few had been invited to an Irish persons home or could call an Irish person a good friend. We came to the conclusion that if you’re in your native country, you already have a social network of family and friends so often don’t have the need or time for new members. An immigrant of course does as they’re trying to build a new network, often from scratch, so needs and expectations are already out of balance. So it’s not a criticism of only the Irish as everyone can easily be guilty of it. Plus I’m aware towards the end of my time in the U.K. I just got tired of making friends with new arrivals as I expected they would move on to another new country, and I just didn’t feel like investing my time and energy anymore.

One aspect I definitely admire is the Irish approach to funerals. I do feel uncomfortable attending when I’ve never met the deceased, but it feels like a cloak of love and understanding is wrapped around the family and loved ones. I’ve really felt for people not being able to grieve and receive the same love and community during the pandemic.

@SunniCameHomeWithAVengeance

On the funerals thing, Irish funerals happen very quickly after a death and are usually well attended. When I lived in England a colleague's mother died. I tried to organise a wreath and who was going but found that it wasn't the done thing and no one asked if the colleague was ok when she came back. The death just wasn't acknowledged. This happened frequently over my years there, death and funerals and grieving is very much behind closed doors. In Ireland the chief mourners are pampered and turned out looking well because all and sundry turn up to shake your hand and express their condolences (pre covid). Then theres generally an 'afters' in a local pub where theres soup and sandwiches put on and teas and coffee. Family members and friends and neighbours who might not have seen each other in years swap stories, often of youthful mischief. People will stop the bereaved on the street to sympathise if they didn't make it to the funeral. Ask how they are, if they've lost someone in similar circumstances will mention it and generally no one is really just left to it.

And absolutely anyone and everyone can/will turn up at the funeral or the removal. I remember my Junior Infant teacher appeared at my Granny's funeral! I was 20 years out of her class at that stage!

I love the Irish culture around funerals tbh, I feel it's one of the things we get really right.

".... if people don't acknowledge a death it is seen as a v personal slight."

I agree.
My dsis is in a small Whatsapp group and a death in the family was not sympathised with by one of the group. Nothing, nada was said. No text, card etc.
That person is now persona non grata to dsis.