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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

566 replies

Norfolker · 04/01/2021 13:13

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

OP posts:
Lydia777 · 04/01/2021 13:57

I am Irish but had never heard the terms 'Middle Class' or 'Working Class' until I moved to the UK at twenty one. Class matters so much less here - its just not a thing. I read Mumsnet sometimes with my mouth dropping open - UK people are obsessed with class and being Middle Class. I actually don't think it's like that anywhere else.

Notimeforaname · 04/01/2021 13:59

Avoca*

Notimeforaname · 04/01/2021 14:00

I read Mumsnet sometimes with my mouth dropping open - UK people are obsessed with class and being Middle Class. I actually don't think it's like that anywhere else

I feel the same. It seems like its everywhere here. Even if just mentioned for a second on a thread...its usually always there. Very strange to me.

Steelasprey · 04/01/2021 14:04

The Irish middle classes have expanded considerably in the past few decades and although we have relatively more social mobility than UK (English) society there are still obvious markers of class and social status. Our car registrations show exactly how ‘well you’re doing’. There are huge distinctions between people from working class backgrounds who have ‘done well for themselves’ and those from the established professional/ business classes. There is a lot of snobbery and inverted snobbery in the country with accents/ addresses/ cars used to judge- very similar to the UK.
Private schools in Ireland are all about making/ maintaining connections and there’s no justification for them in terms of quality of education. People without the cash for fees send their children to Irish-speaking schools if they want to emulate the exclusivity of private schools.
Our society is still very stratified and many are disenfranchised- we treat our traveling community, immigrants and working poor really badly.
The idea of ‘notions’ is a hangover from colonial/ church oppression- we can’t ever be seen to aspire beyond our station in life. It’s really funny at times to see pretension and vulgarity ridiculed, but it is not equally applied.

CrotchBurn · 04/01/2021 14:07

@Lydia777
I am Irish but had never heard the terms 'Middle Class' or 'Working Class' until I moved to the UK

Had you not read books before you moved?

NothingIcando · 04/01/2021 14:11

People without the cash for fees send their children to Irish-speaking schools if they want to emulate the exclusivity of private schools

This is definitely true. My sister has done this. In order to appear middle class. She got the big soccar mom mini bus too. So yes I suppose you do see it in places in Ireland...but only by those desperate to be considered MC. They are laughed at by the masses. Grin

Changi · 04/01/2021 14:17

People just don't do that in Ireland. You would be laughed at !

In my experience, it doesn't happen in the UK in real life.

On here though, some people just seem obsessed with it.

NothingIcando · 04/01/2021 14:19

In my experience, it doesn't happen in the UK in real life

On here though, some people just seem obsessed with it

I did wonder if this was the case. I really couldn't imagine people talking about things like that all day long .

TeaEgg · 04/01/2021 14:20

@tttigress

Do you actually have any figures on the Irish private school situation? I don't but the Irish professionals I know all attended private schools, so I would have thought it is fairly wide spread.

Did a bit of googling, and apparently 30% of Trinity College Dublin's intake is from a private school background: www.universitytimes.ie/2020/01/fee-paying-students-are-three-times-more-likely-to-attend-top-universities/

So I doubt Irish state schools are utopian.

How interesting that you assume that if all the Irish professionals you know went to private schools, there must be something wrong with the state variety? That, if I may say so, is a very British assumption.

There are not many non-state schools in Ireland, and, certainly until very recently, most people just went to wherever was geographically closest, which means there's educationally, far more of a social mix -- lots of UK viewers seemed puzzled by the TV adaptation of Normal People in which Connell, the child of a cleaner from a locally-notorious 'bad' family went to school with Marianne, the daughter of two wealthy solicitors with a holiday home in Italy and a flat in Dublin. That is much more normal here than in England, where I lived for years.

DH and I are professionals with multiple postgraduate degrees, returned from years abroad and living in a traditionally 'prestigious' old area. Our son goes to the nearest school an Educate Together and the children in his class have parents who are anything from architects and neurology consultants to hotel housekeepers and waiters. I actively prefer that. I don't feel the need to socially engineer his social life and friendships.

I think part of the difference in attitudes to class in Ireland is a different economic history we didn't have an industrial revolution at all, really, and it was a largely agrarian society until quite recently, so the important distinctions were between 'strong' and small farmers, and the landless, and smalltown shopkeepers and the like and of course a history of colonisation removed the Gaelic aristocracy and replaced them with a foreign landowning upper-class.

Which is certainly not to say Ireland is a classless utopia the Ross O'Carroll-Kelly column and books are a satire of a certain kind of Dublin 4 snobbery which does exist but it's less entrenched. And far less anxious. English friends seemed far more socially-anxious about their children's friendships and hobbies.

TerribleCustomerCervix · 04/01/2021 14:20

I have a very D4 Friend, complete with the faux-American accent.

She’s absolutely lovely, and very conscious of how lucky she is. She hates her accent and was looking at elocution lessons to try and sound more Dub as she feels very out of place when hanging about with her DP’s friends from the slums of Howth 😂

I think generally both north and south, people aren’t very bothered about the material things that come along with having more disposable income. We only got a Nando’s in the last decade ffs.

DreamingInColours · 04/01/2021 14:21

Irish but have lived in London for 10 years.
Agree with what was said to you.
Wish my DS could be educated in a 'state' school in Ireland as, in my experience, they are brilliant.
I find there is much less of a 'divide' between people back home and notice class etc a lot more when spending time in England.

Apollo3 · 04/01/2021 14:21

I don't but the Irish professionals I know all attended private schools, so I would have thought it is fairly wide spread

It's not. There aren't even private schools outside the main cities. All of the professionals I know (including myself) went to national schools.

There's none of the agonising over where to send your kids to school, almost everyone just goes to their local, almost all of which are very good schools.

Guineapig99 · 04/01/2021 14:22

From the North and there really isn’t a class system the way there is in Mainland U.K. - particularly England. Schools
Are much, much better in North and South of Ireland and less split along class lines.

TeaEgg · 04/01/2021 14:23

@NothingIcando

In my experience, it doesn't happen in the UK in real life

On here though, some people just seem obsessed with it

I did wonder if this was the case. I really couldn't imagine people talking about things like that all day long .

No, no one talks about it in the UK, either, but it's always there, largely unconsciously in the snap judgements people make about one another -- clothes, accent, children's names etc are all automatically plotted onto a sort of class 'grid' in people's heads.

I think that's why some people are baffled by the class threads on here, but the point as far as I can see is that they just make explicit what is usually unspoken.

NothingIcando · 04/01/2021 14:23

Fantastic post TeaEgg ! Sums it up perfectly.

Lordamighty · 04/01/2021 14:24

The only place I have ever heard people discuss class is on Mumsnet, in real life no one gives a damn.

Guineapig99 · 04/01/2021 14:24

In the north You go to your local
School, and your local School Will be very good. Or you choose one up the road instead and it will also be good. Class sizes are small, teachers are really well educated ( half my teachers in a run of the mill grammar had Masters or PHDs), there’s actually a surplus of school
Places.

TaraRhu · 04/01/2021 14:24

Just to say Scotland is very different class wise too. I'm a 'middle class ' Scott but people down here have no concept of such a thing. The English class system is quite unique. For a start any sort of 'accent' puts you into a lower class. As a result I frequently get asked if I was the first generation of my family to go to uni.... er, no. Plus the difference between richest and poorest in England is enormous. It really polarises things.

NothingIcando · 04/01/2021 14:24

but the point as far as I can see is that they just make explicit what is usually unspoken

Yes I think you are right.

Guineapig99 · 04/01/2021 14:25

Northern Ireland I mean...

Deadringer · 04/01/2021 14:25

Private school fees in Ireland are much lower generally than in the UK, they range from about 4000 to about 8000 a year so they are more accessible to 'ordinary' people'. We don't have very expensive schools like Eton for example. We are working class (i suppose, i never thought of it that way) and our dds go to a private school because its the best fit for them in our area. In Ireland we definitely have the 'haves and have nots' that every society has, but no one talks about class. No one i know anyway.

TerribleCustomerCervix · 04/01/2021 14:25

Also, I went to a grammar school in Belfast and we had kids from single parent families on benefits sitting beside their peers whose parents were millionaires, getting the exact same education.

NothingIcando · 04/01/2021 14:26

As a result I frequently get asked if I was the first generation of my family to go to uni

I've had comments like this too a couple of times. What is wrong with people?Confused

TeaEgg · 04/01/2021 14:27

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/private-schools-receive-100m-in-public-funding-1.4446051

Irish Times article from Dec 28th which is about the funding of private schools, which lists the day and boarding fees charged by all Irish private schools -- you'll see there aren't many, and that they're overwhelmingly in Dublin.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 04/01/2021 14:33

I worked in one of the more expensive ones. The main advantage was class size. The teachers and teaching methods were exactly the same as national schools and in fact the national schools I've since taught in had more modern facilities and... More funding!