To ask what would people judge as Brexit success

[SchrodingersBox]

"For years, all supposedly sensible pundits have told us Brexit spells doom for Britain – now they must eat their words" Editorial in Bild today.

If UK GDP has grown by more than EU GDP by the end of this parliament, due to be Dec 2024 but probably May 2024, would people who are anti Brexit accept that it has been successful? If not what would it take?

@notafanoftheman - We WERE fucking living in Europe until yesterday

And you're still living in Europe today.

We are still living in europe

Not,

It is so strange to me the way people conflate the EU with Europe.

We are a part of the continent of Europe and short of tectonic spreading, we will remain so. Over the years our relationship with individual countries within Europe will change, as will those within the current EU.

Personally I feel the EU won’t stand the test of time and will end up as nation states again or, at the very least, a far smaller union of similar nations, which we may choose to be a part of again.

In the broad sweep of change we are seeing at the moment, I suspect a decade from now Brexit won’t be seen as a big deal either way.

@DadOnIce

I think it's not that surprising to 'take so little pleasure or pride in the UK’s unique heritage of democracy and tolerance' when you see it being so thoroughly abused and beaten into the ground as it has been over the last few years, frankly.

Exactly - prorogation of Parliament, Henry VIII powers, broken promises following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum - so much democracy and tolerance being shown right there. We should definitely be craving more of that, it's true patriotism.

Cross post ochan

Unless someone towed us elsewhere over night

If thats the case why didn’t they move us somewhere warm!

@TheReluctantPhoenix - However, if they prefer to consider themselves European than British, surely they might prefer to live in Europe?

Geography's obviously not one of your strengths.

Anyway, I'm ducking out of this thread as it threatens to become a time-sink and I have stuff to do... and everyone else is doing an excellent job of thoroughly unravelling Reluctant Phoenix's shockingly threadbare arguments. Keep it up, everyone.

We have a deal, I’m relieved.

Got to admit to feeling a smidgen of “serves you right” to the Brexit voters seeing their fields and views turned into lorry parks though. Yes this IS what you voted for...stop complaining on social media.

Why is being "Eropean" bigger than being "British"? (One might also ask whether being European requires being in the EU? Is it really that kind of thing?

Would people equally say that being British is bigger than bing Scottish? Is being Canadian bigger than being Quebecois? Spanish bigger than being Catalonian?

People are often extremely inconsistent when they speak in these terms, in the sense that they don't seem to be consistent about whether membership in the larger union is about removal of something or adds something. How is a desire for Scottish autonomy different from a desire for autonomy for a nation-state like the UK? I don't mean at the practical level of trade etc. I mean when people say things like "I have a right to be able to live as a Scot" or "I want to feel European" and see them as being tied to national structures.

Especially wen you are then at odds to say you want to increase the racial or ethnic diversity of the place (or idea?) you are speaking about and see that as central to that identity. (One also wonders if the moral obligation to increase ethnic diversity applies to all nations, or just some?)

I good deal of confusion around the EU, to my mind, comes from confusing internationalism with global economic structures, and also international cooperation on issues that are international which is different again. The EU does involve both, but there are any number of ways to accomplish the different elements, and people who object to some parts of the EU may have no issue with other elements.

Chestnut,

Sanity..

Except the only person I suggested may think about leaving (not ‘told to leave’) wanted to feel European, not British

Quite a shitty response, given your jewish heritage.

People are entitled to feel whatever they like about the country they live in without being told to fuck off or in your case a more polite Perhaps you should consider living elsewhere? same thing really.

I will consider it is success of no European politician has any say on the lives of UK citizens within the UK.

@glitter98

I will consider it is success of no European politician has any say on the lives of UK citizens within the UK.

So will you be campaigning for the UK to also leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR?

Why is being "Eropean" bigger than being "British"?

What an odd question. Bigger economy, larger market, more people, larger geographical area, wider cultural variation, more varied opportunities. Bigger.

@glitter98 - I will consider it is success of no European politician has any say on the lives of UK citizens within the UK.

So it's obviously a failure already in your eyes, given the implementation of the NI Protocol.

The UK is in Europe.
It always will be.
The EU is our largest trading partner.
It always will be.

If UK Governments were less incompetent, the Brexit vote would never have been needed.

If Nigel Farage disappears from our screens and radios.

@ListeningQuietly

The UK is in Europe. It always will be. The EU is our largest trading partner. It always will be.

If UK Governments were less incompetent, the Brexit vote would never have been needed.

Now that is unfair. You should have said: "If David Cameron [was] less incompetent, the Brexit vote would never have been needed.

@OchonAgusOchonO

It is, but every four years they get to vote whether to continue it - and I'm happy that people in NI choose their own personal destiny as well.

So, its a compromise, but much better than the previous situation.

@PetertheWalrus

If Nigel Farage disappears from our screens and radios.

This

@glitter98 - It is, but every four years they get to vote whether to continue it - and I'm happy that people in NI choose their own personal destiny as well.

It's not quite as simple as that. Voting against it continuing requires an alternative that still upholds the GFA. Maybe the amazing technology the tories claimed was no problem will be developed by then. I wouldn't hold my breath. So really, a bit of a hobson's choice.

Scotland also voted against brexit. Why don't they get to choose their destiny too?

@OchonAgusOchonO

I'm happy for them too to have that choice. In fact if it was down to me we'd stop this farce of devolution - either independence or remove all regional assemblies and governments. Covid has shown that this devolution achieves nothing but pointless posturing.

It really is as simple as that - yes, they have to find another solution (iff they choose to - their choice) - Ireland may also have to leave the CU or they discard the GFA; the UK does not have to find a solution at all. No issue at all if they choose to keep the current arrangement - but you can't complain if you are in power to choose what to do.

If the NI people choose any option - its their choice,. but I don't want to be constrained by it (not my concern). Absolutely fine either way - I never agreed to be bound by the GFA and to me it was negotiated by the worst government that ever existed - no issues in throwing away anything of Tony Blair's involvement.

For me one of the reasons I voted Remain was that I was worried that Europe would become less stable and we would all be worse off (apart from those that make money off the back of such turmoil). I would consider Brexit a success if relationships within Europe remain stable and if all the countries in the EU as well as the UK's GDPs improve and that everyone is able to get at least a decent day's pay for a decent day's work; rather than what has been happening where there has been an increase in wealth for the 1% at the expense of everyone else.

@glitter98 - the UK does not have to find a solution at all.

Actually, it does. And suggesting Ireland leaving the CU as a solution is, defacto, breaking the GFA, an international agreement.

Based on your comments, that is obviously not an issue for you but it would be for anyone or any government with integrity.

I never agreed to be bound by the GFA

That's not really the way the law works....

no issues in throwing away anything of Tony Blair's involvement.

Christ. That has to be one of the most heartless comments I've seen on here in a long time. The GFA brought decades of violence to an end but hey, you don't like the architect so let's bring the violence back. I assume that's only if it's other people being killed? You might change your mind if the bombing starts up in your back yard.

no issues in throwing away anything of Tony Blair's involvement.

So I'm assuming you are in favour of the abolition of the national minimum wage?