Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what would people judge as Brexit success

192 replies

SchrodingersBox · 31/12/2020 13:55

"For years, all supposedly sensible pundits have told us Brexit spells doom for Britain – now they must eat their words" Editorial in Bild today.

If UK GDP has grown by more than EU GDP by the end of this parliament, due to be Dec 2024 but probably May 2024, would people who are anti Brexit accept that it has been successful? If not what would it take?

OP posts:
PurpleHoodie · 01/01/2021 15:40

"How could isolationism, a reduction of rights and of freedoms be a success?"

This. It's not all about money. My children has lost the ability to freely study and work in Europe, all so some whingey old farts can claim back their borders and all the billions in child benefit that goes to Poland... The rest of the world has moved on in the last almost-50 years, why are we hell bent on going back to where we were at the start of the 70s?

Absolutely this.

I'll also be 'happy' if we don't get plunged back into a civil and international war again (UK/Ireland.)

DadOnIce · 01/01/2021 15:44

I fear this is the essential problem, and why the question cannot be answered. Much of what a Brexiter would think of as a success, I and many others would consider a failure.

ChestnutStuffing · 01/01/2021 15:44

My feeling is that to limit the idea of the "success" of Brexit to short term economic results misses the point - many people who wanted it were not thinking in those terms. (In fact I think that is one of the reasons Remainers struggled to communicate with Leavers, they kept talking about money, and the next few years.)

Anyway, I don't think anyone will really be able to judge the success or failure until 10 or even 20 years have passed. Personally I am not convinced the EU will look much like it does 50 years from now and it's possible the UK will be better off for having left earlier.

Of course if the expected economic disaster doesn't materialise in the next year or two, those who said it would will have to rethink. It may be difficult to separate any results out from pandemic results though.

DadOnIce · 01/01/2021 15:53

If you manage a large project in business, you are quite reasonably not expected to have to say if it has been successful or not until it has been completed. But an end date is set for this assessment, and there are also agreed milestones along the way to measure whether the project is proceeding along its desired trajectory, together with agreed criteria for that measurement. That's essential for a project lasting several years, to ensure you are not wasting time and money. It's not unreasonable to expect Brexiters to offer the same. They have not.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/01/2021 16:10

Dad,

I think that if, success for you, is to feel ‘European’, it is time for you to question whether you actually want to live in the U.K. it is sad to take so little pleasure or pride in the UK’s unique heritage of democracy and tolerance. (As a Jew, the last thing I want to ‘feel’ is European).

What does that actually mean, anyway? France feels very different to Estonia or Greece. The only Europeans, in my experience, who identify with Europe first and their nation state second are from the former Soviet block.

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2021 16:16

Tampon Tax : Ireland has no VAT on tampons within the EU
so its nothing to do with Brexit Smile

ChestnutStuffing · 01/01/2021 16:19

About this xenophobia business and international freedom of movement: it's true anecdotes are only worth so much. However it's also the case that the evidence from polls and studies suggests that attitudes to outsiders are actually quite positive compared to other European nations. Do people really imagine that the Dutch or the French don't have significant elements of race-based nationalism found in their culture, just to mention two who are sometimes considered to be extremely civilised - I would suggest that kind of thinking is far deeper seated in some other European countries than it is in the UK. I'm sure not everyone would agree but it's not a crazy idea. And Germany has had serious and significant problems with racism - directly as a result of movement of population.

And I think this is the rub - wherever we see large-scale movements of people, especially into smaller communities, and especially when they are at the lower end of the economic scale, there are upsurges of various sorts of xenophobia, as well as articulations of concerns about newcomers that aren't xenophobic or racist (and yes these are different.)

So there is a real problem for people who want very open borders along with acceptance of different sorts of people. Or who would see having both as the measure of success. There is a good chance that both would not happen even without Brexit.

The rather bizarre claim that being leftist means wanting very open borders is a little hard to take though, and so it the kind of moral superiority that seems to come with it. Open borders has never been mainly a leftist position, it is a liberal position, and is the sibling of open borders for capital. Both are always most advantageous for the middle classes and elites, and as such are at odds with traditional leftist thinking which is about protecting workers, industry and the working classes by managing immigration and movement of capital. To put it another way, the EU is a globalist project and freedom to travel is part of that. It's good for employers who want wage competition and to avoid the need to invest in training.

This mix up between leftist economic values and liberal (that is right wing for those who might be confused) economic values accounts for a lot of the confusion, and maybe anger, middle-class, university educated, urban Remainers feel towards Brexit voters. Liberal values have always been very good for them, and by imagining they are leftists it allows them to feel morally contented as well. And I think the belief that it is moral is genuine enough, but it really does impede understanding when the assumption is that liberalism and leftism are the same and both are equally good for workers and outlying regions.

Blibbyblobby · 01/01/2021 16:21

I think that if, success for you, is to feel ‘European’, it is time for you to question whether you actually want to live in the U.K.

How dare you.

This is the Brexit mentality laid bare. No dissent accepted. Agree with us or get out of your own country.

No conception that it's possible to be both British and part of something bigger. Just a zero sum game, all or nothing.

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 01/01/2021 16:21

I think that if, success for you, is to feel ‘European’, it is time for you to question whether you actually want to live in the U.K

HOUSE!

The Leaver's eternal shot: If you don't like it, just leave. Never mind that

  • Poster may well be a UK national with only UK citizenship, and the Brexit vote has made leaving a whole lot harder
  • It's a horribly nationalist populist argument, implying that people opposed to what is happening are not 'British' enough, or not 'Patriotic' enough. Disgusting rhetoric, but sadly typical.
TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/01/2021 16:21

Dad,

What ‘Brexiters’ do you want to offer you review points and an assessment of success or failure; politicians, the civil service or internet warriors (methinks the latter)?

Looking back, I really don’t recall this project management style of government that you desire happening when we joined the EU or signed any of the many treaties broadening and deepening it. Were you equally vexed about that lack of accountability?

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/01/2021 16:23

Arrows,

Typical straw man argument!

Fine to dislike what your country is doing but to not want to feel British is another issue altogether.

So, House to you too!!

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 01/01/2021 16:25

Phoenix if you don't see the rabid nationalism in what you're posting, you are part of the problem. The whole idea of national superiority is a problem. We are all human beings. Nobody is better than anyone else just because of their nationality. No nationality is superior to another. We are all allowed to express dissatisfaction and preferences. And we all know where your kind of rhetoric leads us.

corythatwas · 01/01/2021 16:27

Loving the argument that refugees being able to pay to be taken across the Channel proves that they have got to be economic migrants (them having money proves that they're poor?) and can't possibly be fleeing war or persecution. Because having a few hundred or even thousand pounds absolutely means bombs can't drop on your head and you're immune to persecution.

Also the idea that travelling from a war torn country or one where you are on the wanted list because of your political or religious affiliation or sexual orientation is just as simple as the travelling the rest of us know: why don't these people just show their passport and get on an aeroplane, eh?

And that the majority of refugees try or even want to make their way to the UK.

notafanoftheman · 01/01/2021 16:29

^
The Turing Scheme looks much better than Eurasmus. Cheaper for the tax payer but more money going to students, more people eligible, support to learn all over the world not just Europe.^

You are aware that Erasmus is not a Europe-only scheme of course Hmm

notafanoftheman · 01/01/2021 16:31

What does that actually mean, anyway? France feels very different to Estonia or Greece

You could say the same of rural Devon and Birmingham. TIVERTON DEMANDS SOVEREIGNTY

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/01/2021 16:34

Arrows,

Ahh, one of those citizens of everywhere (normally resident in a leafy suburb of London) who sees loyalty to a nation state as a problem as, at the end of the day, a Ralph Lauren shop in Paris is much the same as a Ralph Lauren shop in Rome.

‘We are all equal’ but not all societies are. As a minority, whose grandparents’ generation (and even some of my parents’ generation as children) had rather a rough time in Europe, I am happy to take my chances in this country.

DadOnIce · 01/01/2021 16:40

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Dad,

I think that if, success for you, is to feel ‘European’, it is time for you to question whether you actually want to live in the U.K. it is sad to take so little pleasure or pride in the UK’s unique heritage of democracy and tolerance. (As a Jew, the last thing I want to ‘feel’ is European).

What does that actually mean, anyway? France feels very different to Estonia or Greece. The only Europeans, in my experience, who identify with Europe first and their nation state second are from the former Soviet block.

Believe me, I am questioning whether I want to live in the UK and have been for the last four years. But that is up to me -- I won't be told by anyone else.

I'm not sure what being a Jew has to do with it -- I know plenty of Jews who very much want to be European and British (as I do, or at least did). It is entirely possible to feel, and be, British European, French European or Greek European. Not hard at all.

Brainwave89 · 01/01/2021 16:41

Full disclosure I voted remain. Success for me is that we have no significant tariff barriers and life does not change that much. We have gone a long way to achieving this, though Uk citizens now have limitations in terms of living and working in the EU and residing there. Both of which I and my children have done. Longer term I fear significant consequences on areas such as care, when they cannot recruit from Europe unless there is a 30k salary involved. However, this will have to be revised at some point. Given I am of Asian origin, I did experience more open and unpleasant racism than usual after the vote. This has calmed down somewhat, but I would also judge success by this level of racism declining.

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 01/01/2021 16:45

Ahhh, another Leaver making assumptions about those who think differently...

I'm not British (thank goodness) and live in a pretty deprived town in Leave-voting East Anglia. Not wealthy, though I do work in the NHS so a reviled public sector worker . Own one or two designer things - from our local charity shops and bought for about a fiver. But do enjoy your assumptions.

You mention being Jewish - it's a bit ironic then that you are spouting the kind of nationalist abuse at those of us who do not support Brexit (as in openly saying we should just leave the UK).

Those of us who are opposed to Brexit and loathe where the UK finds itself have every bit as much right to live here as you do. Telling us to leave says a great deal about you.

OchonAgusOchonO · 01/01/2021 16:48

As a minority, whose grandparents’ generation (and even some of my parents’ generation as children) had rather a rough time in Europe, I am happy to take my chances in this country.

Rather a sweeping statement. Italy, Finland, Denmark, Bulgaria, Albania all protected their Jewish citizens during the second world war.

DadOnIce · 01/01/2021 16:50

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Dad,

What ‘Brexiters’ do you want to offer you review points and an assessment of success or failure; politicians, the civil service or internet warriors (methinks the latter)?

Looking back, I really don’t recall this project management style of government that you desire happening when we joined the EU or signed any of the many treaties broadening and deepening it. Were you equally vexed about that lack of accountability?

I don't want 'internet warriors' to offer me anything, thanks, but if they will insist on banging on about how great Brexit is going to be, then it is at least reasonable to ask them what they mean by that. But the architects and instigators of Brexit should be those defining the milestones, which comes down to the Government.

When we joined the EU (the EEC as it was), our membership was swiftly ratified within 30 months by a referendum (many people think the 1975 referendum was about joining the EEC, but it was about public approval of the status quo). And yes, many treaties broadened and deepened this, all ratified separately rather than at one fell swoop. It wasn't a 'project management style' of milestones, but neither was it an immediate, fully-effective, paid-up entry into a federal Europe. I have little doubt that we were heading that way by increments, and I'd have been very happy to see that happen, frankly.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/01/2021 16:55

Arrows,

Except the only person I suggested may think about leaving (not ‘told to leave’) wanted to feel European, not British.

I loathe many things happening in the U.K. right now, but my first thought is not to primarily want to consider myself ‘Jewish’ first and ‘British’ second.

People have every right to feel we have made a massive mistake Brexiting and despise the way the government have handled it. However, if they prefer to consider themselves European than British, surely they might prefer to live in Europe?🤷‍♀️

DadOnIce · 01/01/2021 16:59

I think it's not that surprising to 'take so little pleasure or pride in the UK’s unique heritage of democracy and tolerance' when you see it being so thoroughly abused and beaten into the ground as it has been over the last few years, frankly. Hmm

notafanoftheman · 01/01/2021 17:01

We WERE fucking living in Europe until yesterday 🤬

DadOnIce · 01/01/2021 17:03

Exactly, notafan -- not rocket science, is it? It's rather like the way my brother used to grab my arm and make me punch my other arm and say 'stop hitting yourself'.

Swipe left for the next trending thread