He is still not divorced

[Heisstillnotdivorced]

Namechanged.

My fiance and I got engaged almost a year ago. We have one daughter, she is two years old. We have been living together for four years and own a house in both our names. He was legally separated when I met him and had been for two years.

Things are pretty hostile with his ex, lots of sniping back and forth all the time. They have three teenage DCs together. She ended the marriage and has a new partner but seems to find any excuse to argue with my fiance. Initially I got on quite well with her but not anymore, she sent me a spiteful message last year saying he didn't want to move on from her, if he did they would be divorced now. I avoid her now.

My problem is he has been promising me for two years now that he is going to sort his divorce out but there is always a reason it doesn't get done.

AIBU to call off the engagement?

I dated as married man and he is now divirced and my fiance. It was complicated with finances and his ex which is why it took a while.

The legal bit I know nothing about, I am in Canada so it's different here, but disrespectful behaviour is the same world over.
He is disrespecting you by not following through on his promise.

He knows how much it is hurting you, he has had lots of conversations with you and loads of chances to say of there was a reason he didn't want to follow through.
Yet here you are, almost a year later, having to still be dropping ultimatums just to get him to do what he should have.
If he is okay with hurting you this much now, what will he be like with important issues in the long term?
Is he a true support, is he going to keep his word on important things in the future?

@malificent7

Why the hell would anyone be bothered to check the grade of diamond in this situation? I am missing the point i know.

Because someone suggested he might be being dishonest about his finances.

Well you better tell the venue, the registrar and the courts that have all been informed that he is legally separated and intending to remarry. They are all fine with it but I'm sure they will be interested in your perspective.

But all of that means nothing which is what I think pp's are trying to say. You can book a venue, wear a ring, call yourself engaged etc, doesn't mean the marriage will happen on the dates booked. Actions speak louder than words, he hasn't taken the actions to facilitate your marriage.

My advice would be to give him an ultimatum but only if you can settle yourself with the fact he is conflict avoidant (even lazy) and can't even be disciplined enough to book a holiday.

If someone was actually booking wedding events while still married to someone else I would worry they would become a bigamist or had a mental illness of some sort.

So assuming we had different goals in life how can he think it's acceptable to mislead me?

Perhaps it wasn't a deliberate intention to mislead you, but his feelings may have changed over the years especially as his wife is now demanding more money, when he initially thought the terms were agreed on.

Was she a SAHM who gave up work to look after the kids? Does she work now, as those things would be relevant in terms of what she's entitled to. It's just something to think about.

It may be that he hasn't actually changed his mind, but the stress and hassle of the whole divorce process is overwhelming for him and more complex.

Yanbu - I agree, if he wanted to be divorced he would be. The fact that he isn’t indicates he still wants to be married to his ex. Her message was spiteful, but tbh it sounds like it was accurate.

I’m so sorry - not what you need or deserve

He came into talk to me, made all the right noises which would suggest he sees my point of view except that I've been here before a million times. He has made initial appointments with two family law solicitors for January for consultations.

He represented himself up to now which imo caused it to be far messier than necessary. She had legal representation and every time she brought him back into court for further demands she would have them granted.

I was worried finalising the terms of the divorce would go the same way if he insisted on doing it himself.

So things look ok now except I'm reluctant to trust we won't be six steps back in a few months. I feel very annoyed.

I would take off the pretty ring and tell him it stays off until he is divorced.

Because until he is divorced it is utterly meaningless. It’s like giving someone who can’t swim yet a job as a lifeguard.

Also tell him that getting representation will take all the pressure and confrontation off him. A lawyer will be non emotional and straightforward and just say ‘no’ to her lawyer. It will be arms length for him.

He isn’t divorced because she puts more emotional pressure on than you do.

Take off your ring, cancel the date. Say planning will resume once he is free to marry. Otherwise it is an empty promise.

And hope he finds his backbone.

You are asking for advice but so awful back to posters. You were stupid to do get into such a situation and that is entirely on you so get over that and decide the way forward. You gave him a baby and he has other kids and it really seems like he doesn't want to get married again. If he can't wind up his divorce why would he then go through another marriage. The engagement meant nothing legally or otherwise and seemed more so to keep you happy. Its four years, he could have found the time to get divorced.

OP.. I’m sorry you’re going through this , I can tell by your posts that you’re troubled and stressed by thinking about all of this .
Leaving all the legal stuff aside ( as it can and will be resolved- albeit not as quickly as it could have been ) I would urge you to take some time to think about your own future and that of your child .
You’re annoyed now by your partner and his inertia in dealing with things ... ( I agree with you )
Do you really want to sign up for this ?
You driving the important stuff ? And the fact that things that upset you are not a priority for him to deal with ?
Please be honest with yourself and really consider how much responsibility you end up with habitually.

I eventually divorced for these reasons .. I was drained in the end ...

Good luck

So things look ok now except I'm reluctant to trust we won't be six steps back in a few months. I feel very annoyed

You haven’t even moved one step forward yet! All that’s happened is that he’s said the right things to you now, he’s not actually done anything apart from talk. I’m glad you feel that makes everything “ look ok now “.

BECAUSE HES BEEN TALKING AND NOT ACTING FOR YEARS!!

You’ve been living together for 4 years so I’m guessing you met, what , 5 years ago ? And he was already separated for 2 years when you met so that was at least 7 years ago.

And he’s been promising to sort this out for ??? 4 years. And in all that time he’s not even instructed a solicitor? That shows how serious he is about it.

He keeps losing to her because he’s not represented but for some reason he couldn’t figure out that means he needs a solicitor.

You said upthread you would leave on Friday if he’s not instructed a solicitor. And he’s not, he’s just made some appointments in January to talk to some he’s thinking about instructing. Maybe.

I also notice you’ve not answered the posters who have asked you if he has a judicial separation, because if so, the terms are legally binding.

@C0NNIE

So things look ok now except I'm reluctant to trust we won't be six steps back in a few months. I feel very annoyed

You haven’t even moved one step forward yet! All that’s happened is that he’s said the right things to you now, he’s not actually done anything apart from talk. I’m glad you feel that makes everything “ look ok now “.

BECAUSE HES BEEN TALKING AND NOT ACTING FOR YEARS!!

You’ve been living together for 4 years so I’m guessing you met, what , 5 years ago ? And he was already separated for 2 years when you met so that was at least 7 years ago.

And he’s been promising to sort this out for ??? 4 years. And in all that time he’s not even instructed a solicitor? That shows how serious he is about it.

He keeps losing to her because he’s not represented but for some reason he couldn’t figure out that means he needs a solicitor.

You said upthread you would leave on Friday if he’s not instructed a solicitor. And he’s not, he’s just made some appointments in January to talk to some he’s thinking about instructing. Maybe.

I also notice you’ve not answered the posters who have asked you if he has a judicial separation, because if so, the terms are legally binding.

He has moved one step, he filed his divorce papers last year after he proposed to me. But he didn't continue to the end when it got complicated. I said I would make plans to leave if he didn't organise a solicitor. He has organised consultations with two. I am for the moment satisfied. I'm sorry you're not.

I don't know if it's a judicial separation or not, I haven't had time to read the legal definitions. Perhaps I could post the papers here and one of the many legal experts could explain it.

OP have you said this to him?

I'm afraid that even if this happens now I will resent that I had to go to these lengths to make him do the basics here. It seems nuts that he proposed to me but then I had to bully him into sorting his mess out. Why did I have to get to this stage?

Perhaps it will help make clear to him the impact his delays have had.
Also, go with him to those solicitors appointments. Make sure one of you asks about timings and if Covid will affect things. If you're likely to need to re-book your wedding the sooner you know the better.

Good luck

I'm sorry to be mean but you're not engaged. Engaged means "engaged to be married". There is no way you can have this status because he is already married, it would be bigamy. If he wants to genuinely make you an actual proposal of marriage (becoming "engaged") he needs to be divorced first.

@Colouringaddict

Quote from a guidance note on the web site of Keith Walsh Solicitors, a firm with offices in Dublin who have won family law award of the year at the Irish Law Awards 2018:

“If you are divorced you are free to marry again. If you are separated, you are still married and cannot remarry”.

Legally, the OP’s partner is still a married man.

[quote Piglet89]@Colouringaddict

Quote from a guidance note on the web site of Keith Walsh Solicitors, a firm with offices in Dublin who have won family law award of the year at the Irish Law Awards 2018:

“If you are divorced you are free to marry again. If you are separated, you are still married and cannot remarry”.

Legally, the OP’s partner is still a married man.[/quote]
WHAT? So we can't get married till he divorces? I had no idea. Thanks so much for highlighting that piglet. It's great to have a legal brain here on the team.

I will suggest to him later he thinks about getting divorced and update you all here.

I wasn’t actually addressing you, OP. I know you know what I’ve said above. Why, knowing this, you still blindly continued forth, is a bit of a mystery. Seems your clock was ticking deafeningly loudly.

Anyway, maybe you don’t understand how Mumsnet threads work. Is this your first time posting here? You’ll see I @ another poster: it was that person to whom my comment was addressed. Not you.

Regarding your comment - you’re right - it WOULD be great to have a legal brain on your team - like an actual Irish-law-qualified family lawyer. Like I assume your partner’s wife has? But your partner doesn’t actually have that yet, does he?

@Piglet89

I wasn’t actually addressing you, OP. I know you know what I’ve said above. Why, knowing this, you still blindly continued forth, is a bit of a mystery. Seems your clock was ticking deafeningly loudly.

Anyway, maybe you don’t understand how Mumsnet threads work. Is this your first time posting here? You’ll see I @ another poster: it was that person to whom my comment was addressed. Not you.

Regarding your comment - you’re right - it WOULD be great to have a legal brain on your team - like an actual Irish-law-qualified family lawyer. Like I assume your partner’s wife has? But your partner doesn’t actually have that yet, does he?

No he doesn't. Do you think I should suggest it to him?

I wouldn’t bother, to be honest. If he hasn’t done the heavy lifting to sort it now, he’s just not motivated or interested enough to marry you.

A difficult message to hear, I know, but that’s how it looks from where I’m sitting. I would offer the platitude “you’re worth more” but I don’t actually know you, and what I have seen so far is predominantly breathtakingly aggressive rudeness, so you haven’t exactly covered yourself in glory on this thread.

Stepping back for a second: the question in your original post was: “AIBU to call off the engagement?” It was not for legal advice about his marital position, the position with what he’s likely to have to pay out in settlement or any of the above.

My answer to that is you are not unreasonable to call off the engagement, for the following reasons:

1. He does not value you enough to take the (perhaps difficult) steps to divorce his wife so he can marry you.
2. He has kids from his previous relationship which makes things messy.
3. You don’t get on with his parents and they disapprove of his relationship with you.
4. He is sounds lazy, which is a really unattractive quality in a partner when you’re supposed to be a team, because it sounds like you’ll be “carrying” him and doing the hard yards for the rest of your life with him. That’s exhausting and is very likely to grate over time, as you yourself have recognised.

1 and 4 are probably linked but by far the biggest red flag for me in terms of the long-term health of your relationship is 4.

Not going to lie, OP you’re cracking me up with your sarcasm. I hope you have an Irish accent because that’s how I’m reading your posts.

Makes a change from the usual mumsnet pile-ons.

Wow Op you’ve been really unpleasant to people who have taken time to give you advice.

You don’t even know his exact legal situation because you’ve not had time to read the papers - even though it’s been 5 years.

I’m beginning to think this is a reverse and you are looking for sympathy and excuses to give to your girlfriend about why you’ve not divorced your wife. Or did you expect MNers to tell you how awful your wife and girlfriend are for pressurising you?

@Piglet89 thanks for that.

So in summary: 1 and 4: you've repeated what I've been saying all along and stated as my motive for wanting to end things. Very insightful.
2: he has kids already so our child should not be looked after. Ok, makes sense to you I guess.
3: completely irrelevant but do continue down this line no matter how many times I tell you we have minimal contact.

OP: you asked, we answered, you abused us.

I don’t know why you posted, to be perfectly honest. I’m ultimately saying I agree with you - so just call it off and

LTB

I have been looking at the link piglet89 posted yesterday to the law society in Ireland. This answers my confusion about the differences in the systems in Scotland and Ireland.

So in Scotland, if you negotiate a separation agreement lodged at court or have a judicial separation, these are the terms which are carried forward in the divorce. So the actual divorce is relatively simple once you have cleared this hurdle (in my case, we have not).

In Ireland, it seems that ‘whatever the couple may decide between themselves, they cannot legally contract out of their right to seek more money from the other partner, even after divorce’. This suggests that your husband’s ex will be able to make some kind of claim, as she is doing. I also looked at the Thomson Reuters Practical Family law website and this suggests however that ‘full and final’ separation agreements should be given ‘significant weight’. This suggests that they are not meaningless, but nor do they settle matters (which was my question). The court has an obligation to ensure ‘proper provision’ is made for the spouses and any dependent children. It seems the obligation of spousal maintenance continues until the death or re-marriage of the recieving spouse although it also notes that the court is unlikely to impose a maintenance payment where a dependent spouse is cohabiting with a new partner. (All very traditional, this).

So to your situation, and please do not be rude, although I appreciate your frustration, I am spending my time looking at this, I think the following:

1. Your partner needs a lawyer
2. Lawyers are expensive and he has probably already spent a lot of money. Seriously consider whether it is worth it, because it will impact on the money available for your household. I speak as someone who has spent a lot of money on legal fees and is not divorced - how much will his being divorced cost, and is it worth it? I appreciate you are engaged and have a child so maybe it is worth a lot, but there are hard financial questions to consider here. At some point the ex will want to remarry and that will become more important to her than contesting divorce raised by your partner. A bitter pill to swallow, but a pragmatic approach.
3. Lawyer needs to advise if the arrangements reached in the separation agreement are fair or are likely to be changed by the court. This seems to me the crucial point.
4. It genuinely does not seem to me as if getting a divorce is easy in Ireland. It was only allowed in 1995 or 1996 - cannot remember which - and it looks to me several decades behind provision in England (and Scotland).
5. On balance, how things are with your partner, can you come to terms with him still being legally married, and you not being able to get married, because he has sufficient good points and you value your family as it is (only you know that).

Probably not what you want to hear, but I speak as someone who has given up trying to get divorced. Granted i am not engaged to someone else and I don’t have another partner and child, but I have had to reach the decision that the issue is the law and not me. Your partner should have all the information necessary to make a decision about whether you can jointly afford this. Of course, he should have done this before proposing, but clearly he has had his head in the sand.