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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Was DD overreacting?

370 replies

christmascaroller · 16/12/2020 10:40

Last night we (DH, DD15 and I) were watching something with Fairytale of New York in, and DH said "isn't it ridiculous that they can't say f*ggot anymore". DD told him that it was a slur (which I don't disagree with btw) and that he shouldn't say it even in this context. He said that it was perfectly fine for him to say as he wasn't being homophobic. My AIBU is this: when he said that it was fine to say, DD said "just admit that you're a bigotted twat instead of wasting your breath"!! I told DD that this was unacceptable but she stormed out and hasn't spoken to us since.

YABU: her reaction was perfectly justified
YANBU: she shouldn't be using language like that over a word

OP posts:
mintkoala · 16/12/2020 14:15

Genuine question for the woke posters here - why is this word now such a huge insult? Has it become a more current usage?

Like all of us I know numerous words that are insults attached to people's race, sexual orientation, disability, etc. I wouldn't use any of them. I can however quite easily quote them or use them in telling a story. A few terms are so incendiary that I hesitate to use them at all. Faggot is not one of them. Generally speaking, insults lose their bite with age and distance. So why is faggot so terrible?

chickenchowmeins · 16/12/2020 14:16

Screaming "racism!" "homophobia!" is fine when there is actual racism & homophobia occuring though. exemplified by her father's use of slurs. i've not called you racist or homophobic.

Schummakker · 16/12/2020 14:19

I’m not as ‘woke’ as my DC but faggot seems terribly insulting to gay people, it’s just common sense.

CardoMondo · 16/12/2020 14:19

This reply has been deleted

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LH1987 · 16/12/2020 14:20

I think they are both wrong, faggot shouldn’t be in the song in my opinion) but she shouldn’t talk to him like that. You can have a reasoned debate on it.

I suppose your DD or one of her friends might be gay and she is extra sensitive because of that.

TerribleLizard · 16/12/2020 14:21

@TatianaBis I don’t disagree with you that it is insulting to gay people at all. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be changed. I’m saying that if the Pogues were trying to tell a story about someone who was being homophobic, then they would have kept it in. They would have said it’s crucial that the character uses that word because they are using a homophobic slur because they are homophobic, and that is what we are trying to get across.

I think it’s highly relevant what the intention was, because people are saying it’s terrible that the word has been changed. The Pogues are saying it’s not terrible, it doesn’t change the story to change the lyrics, and have changed them.

berrygirlie · 16/12/2020 14:23

@CardoMondo

She’s part of the snowflake generation. It isn’t her fault bless her, they’re all professionally offended these days. Just ignore her
"She's part of the ignorant generation. It isn't her fault bless her, they're all racist and homophobic. Just ignore her."

If I said this about middle-aged people there'd be a shitstorm. Let's not let your casual ageism supersede the interesting points of this conversation.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 16/12/2020 14:28

I would also point out (apologies if someone has already and I've missed it) that "faggot" is only a homophobic slur in the US. Here in the UK a faggot is a bundle of wood, a meaty ball of offal wrapped in a sheep's caul OR (and this is the most relevant one) a miserable, curmudgeonly old person - usually a woman, but can be a man).

I'll bet if the singer had called her other half a "right fanny" no-one would have batted an eyelid. She calls him a "faggot" and suddenly it's a slur.

GlitteryUnicornSparkles · 16/12/2020 14:29

@pizzaandcats I thought it was ‘old southern drunk’ too!!? 😮

NamechangedforAIBU · 16/12/2020 14:31

Some young people get worked up about everything.... it is so stressful for them being woke or whatever they call it... calling all the rest of us out.... how did we survive without their wisdom...

However, some of the young think being just plain rude to people ok. Tell her that language evolves and some of the things she considers ok today will be deeply frowned upon in a few years to come so watch out bigot of the future

TerribleLizard · 16/12/2020 14:33

@mintkoala language is always changing, as are the taboos of the time. What’s a swear word, and how ‘bad’ it’s perceived to be is changing all the time. Cunt wasn’t used as a swear word in the Middle Ages. The god related ones have lost their status as high level swears more recently, and swear words that refer to race and sexual orientation aren’t really used as generic swears anymore. Swearing has a very interesting history, because it is a measure of the views and taboos of the time.

badacorn · 16/12/2020 14:34

Maybe your daughter is homosexual and hearing her dad use homophobic slurs is like a kick in the teeth?

Definitely agree she shouldn’t have said that to her dad but in my experience people who think it’s fine to use racist or homophobic slurs will all but laugh in your face if you politely ask them to stop. So there may be a backstory here where the daughter has conducted herself better until today.

mintkoala · 16/12/2020 14:36

Why is it common sense that faggot is terribly insulting to gay people? So insulting that it is not even to be quoted? More obscene than slag?

mintkoala · 16/12/2020 14:38

Is it a word that is even in current use, in that someone might shout it at you in the street?

riotlady · 16/12/2020 14:39

@SchadenfreudePersonified

I would also point out (apologies if someone has already and I've missed it) that "faggot" is only a homophobic slur in the US. Here in the UK a faggot is a bundle of wood, a meaty ball of offal wrapped in a sheep's caul OR (and this is the most relevant one) a miserable, curmudgeonly old person - usually a woman, but can be a man).

I'll bet if the singer had called her other half a "right fanny" no-one would have batted an eyelid. She calls him a "faggot" and suddenly it's a slur.

This just isn’t the case. Yes, it also has the meaning of wood/offal but it is also a slur that has been shouted at plenty of gay people in the UK. It’s not only an insult in the US
Schummakker · 16/12/2020 14:39

@mintkoala Really? hmmm let’s see let’s see...how could they word ‘faggpt’ possibly be insulting...oh yes, because of it being meant as an insult to gay people.

Slag is also insulting yes, not sure what that has to do with it.

Angel2702 · 16/12/2020 14:40

@berrygirlie

To be fair to her, would you accept the N word being used in a song even if the song was an old song?

Yes, you wouldn't find it appropriate to say "Isn't it ridiculous we can't say n*** anymore, but I'm not saying it in a racist way"...

My father used to do stuff like this all the time, whether it was gay slurs or racial slurs and I always hated it. And I hated the fact that he didn't even care enough about me (political correctness aside) to stop saying slurs

But it isn’t the same thing the N word was always used to mean the same thing and is not appropriate.

Faggot has at least 3 different meanings altogether, in Ireland at the time of the song being written the word meant similar to idiot and was a harmless insult. It don’t have anything to do with the more recent meaning. It’s not a case of it being acceptable to be homophobic then and not now as it wasn’t even the meaning or context of this word in the song.

berrygirlie · 16/12/2020 14:43

Faggot has at least 3 different meanings altogether, in Ireland at the time of the song being written the word meant similar to idiot and was a harmless insult.

It's not a harmless insult anymore and therefore shouldn't be used. It's truly that simple. No-one is advocating for slagging off The Pogues or Kirsty MacColl for using the word (providing your reference of it being a harmless insult is true) but times change and we adapt our language.

Schummakker · 16/12/2020 14:43

@Angel2702 if the husband of the OP were to call a man (gay or not) a faggot down the pub he’d likely get his lights punched out. That would say more than your argument.

choli · 16/12/2020 14:48

She sounds like a jersey. Discussion is better.

mintkoala · 16/12/2020 14:48

Of course it is an insulting word for a gay person, but why is this particular word so insulting that you can't even quote it?

Again, I wouldn't use it as an insult personally, because I'm not homophobic. But I don't see why you can't quote it.

ferretface · 16/12/2020 14:50

I don't really understand the concern about that part of the lyrics irrespective of whether it was a slur at the time because the lyrics are sung from the viewpoint of two characters - characters are just that, they don't have to be nice or correct. Most of the point of Fairytale and the thing that gives the song its edge is the tender/pure emotions being expressed by two characters who are totally down and out and not necessarily very nice or good people.

Imo your DD needs to consider whether she really thinks that all characters need to be morally irreproachable, if she concludes no, SIBU to get annoyed at her dad :)

SleepyGirly · 16/12/2020 14:52

Your DH quoted the word whereas your DD called your DH a “twat” as a personal insult. It must be exhausting being triggered over everything. I agree with PP that people take offence over the word “faggot” but not “slut.”

PhilCornwall1 · 16/12/2020 14:53

@reprehensibleme

It must be exhausting being young these days.
Completely agree. So many things to decide they absolutely must get offended over these days.
berrygirlie · 16/12/2020 14:53

Of course it is an insulting word for a gay person, but why is this particular word so insulting that you can't even quote it?

I don't use this word because I've never experienced the oppression that would cause someone to call me it. I have previously used the words "dyke" and "tranny" because I have been physically attacked and bullied using these words (because of how I used to present) as people assumed I was these things. However, I would never direct these words at other people and only use them when I am describing what other people have said during incidents of homophobic and transphobic abuse against me.

I censor the f-slur because I am uncomfortable using it and am happy to listen to the people who are oppressed by it and respect their wishes (which is often not to say it). Same with the n word and various other hate-based slurs, in the context of discrimination.