To think this is unacceptable?

[flaviaritt]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9048759/Family-kicked-United-flight-New-Jersey-toddler-refused-wear-mask.html

This family were forced to leave a flight home because their two year old wouldn’t ‘comply’ with mask-wearing.

She’s 2.

Has the world gone mad? Surely it’s common sense that a young child should not be forced into a mask? Surely it’s a violation of the rights of the child to insist upon this?

@flaviaritt

Our teachers are dying. Our children our developing MIS-13...What is the point of masks mandates anyway by your logic.

Unfortunately, human beings are susceptible to viruses, including teachers. It’s not an excuse to abuse 2 year olds.

I can't honestly believe you are saying oh well them to people DYING as long as a two year old doesn't have to wear a mask. You are utterly ridiculous.

I don't think any airline should have a policy which contradicts the WHO advice that mask use in under 5s is not recommended.

I don't think the family should have been taking an unnecessary plane trip either.

For essential journeys (eg relocation, visiting family with terminal illness...) then if it was clear that one airline requires toddlers to wear masks and other airlines don't, then I thin families should choose the flight most suitable to their circumstances.

I wonder if the family arranged and filmed this to prove a point (pp mentioned Trump supporting Instagram star). If they did, they have purposely put their child through a distressing situation for their own interests, which is appalling.

Do United have mask exemptions for eg people with medical issues that make wearing one unwise? If they do, it is difficult to see why they don't extend this to under 5's. If they don't, that would seem to be discriminatory (though, if I had a lung condition, I would probably not be wanting to fly anywhere mid pandemic).

I'm very pro-mask but I see neither the necessity nor the practicality of demanding a 2yo wear one!

Do I need to keep going? My son's history teacher teacher died last week. She was 25 yo and the same age as my oldest. She went to school with him Its not uncommon. Its not rare. Its happening. The young and healthy are not immune and they are dying also

Sorry, but post as many links as you like, statistically it is extremely rare for a healthy 25 year old to die from Covid. Just because you know someone who has, doesn't mean it is as common as you think it is.

No doubt we will be masking new born babies soon...

@flaviaritt
Do you think nappies are abuse? Or seat belts?
Or stopping a 2 year old from kicking others on purpose?
Why do you think it's abuse to make a child wear a piece of cloth in front of their mouth?
Would you class it as abuse if a kid has a scarf pulled up to cover their noes/mouth? Because then all scandi kids are being abused on a daily level to say the least.

A. The airline policy is based on CDC guidance. It is a policy put together by public health experts.

B. Parents who don't wish to have their kids wear masks can decide not to fly. There is a deep irony that the same people who are crying out for "personal responsibility" in refusing to wear masks are the ones who are angry when their choices have consequences.

C. People who don't live in the States and want to complain about rules can fuck right off. There were MORE THAN A MILLION CASES last week. There are states with over 50% positivity (although some of that speaks to the appalling state of testing). They are projecting there will be as many deaths as there were American casualties in WWII. Hospitals are full. ICU bed availability is as low as 2-3% in some states. And Christmas hasn't even happened.

Meanwhile, public health officials are having their houses protested and their children terrorized. City councils are voting against mask mandates because of 'freedom' and 'personal choice', even as their friends and family die. And, on rare but notable occasions, those who try to enforce mask rules are assaulted, screamed at, or worse.

So, honestly, the fact that in the midst of all of this, two Covid sceptics took a totally fucking unnecessary trip across the country to visit family from multiple households and then travel in a virus pack to the heart of New York City to see a tree and are horrified that the choice to do that while flying on their preferred airline isn't possible because they haven't done anything to prepare that toddler...that this causes you to blame THE AIRLINE for unreasonable behavior, is absolutely bloody baffling.

@flaviaritt

Are our 2 you and their teachers somehow immune?

This is irrelevant. It’s not acceptable to forcibly mask them. We all live with some risk.

THEN DON'T FORCIBLY MASK THEM! THE AIRLINE POLICY ISN'T THAT ALL CHILDREN MUST BE FORCIBLY MASKED!!

This thread is about bit bonkers.

There are rules, policies and regulations in all areas of life, some we can't avoid, flying is, however, an avoidable activity. I would not cause distress to child by putting them in a distressing situation. The parents are at fault here. The debate about the efficacy of masks is irrelevant, it's the airlines policy. Providing no laws are being broken they can implement any policy they like and we are free to choose not to fly with them if we don't like it.

I note the OP has now taken the role of arbiter of what's in children's best interests. You might think forcing a child to have vaccinations is in their interests but I would imagine there are anti-vaxxers who would be happy to argue that point with you. Not an anti-vaxxer, just making a point that the OP shouldn't assume she is the final word on what's best for ALL children.

As for the situation being abusive, give over. There are children today who will experience appalling and very real abuse, let's not trivialise the crimes committed against them.

As for the situation being abusive, give over. There are children today who will experience appalling and very real abuse, let's not trivialise the crimes committed against them.

So true!!

The law says my child must be in a car seat appropriate for age.

How I get them in it or if I choose to travel in a car is my choice.

I can get a taxi instead or the bus or walk or not go.

I can coerce them with food or phone or other bribe or o can twist their arm into place until th y cry, threaten to smack them, threaten to burn their teddy bear or hit them til they give in and I can get their straps on.

Some of those approaches are wrong and some are right. They are ALL on me not the government, law enforcement or makers of the car seat.

It's the same thing

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Do I need to keep going? My son's history teacher teacher died last week. She was 25 yo and the same age as my oldest. She went to school with him Its not uncommon. Its not rare. Its happening. The young and healthy are not immune and they are dying also

Sorry, but post as many links as you like, statistically it is extremely rare for a healthy 25 year old to die from Covid. Just because you know someone who has, doesn't mean it is as common as you think it is.

Ah well then. As long as it only happened once that's OK.

TrustTheGeneGenie
Sorry, but post as many links as you like, statistically it is extremely rare for a healthy 25 year old to die from Covid. Just because you know someone who has, doesn't mean it is as common as you think it is.

In the US, only 923 people per million have died of SARS-CoV-2 so far. That's "extremely rare", I guess. In the UK it is 943 per million, which is still "extremely rare": why, I only knew two people who've died of it so far.

@Nancydrawn

A. The airline policy is based on CDC guidance. It is a policy put together by public health experts.

B. Parents who don't wish to have their kids wear masks can decide not to fly. There is a deep irony that the same people who are crying out for "personal responsibility" in refusing to wear masks are the ones who are angry when their choices have consequences.

C. People who don't live in the States and want to complain about rules can fuck right off. There were MORE THAN A MILLION CASES last week. There are states with over 50% positivity (although some of that speaks to the appalling state of testing). They are projecting there will be as many deaths as there were American casualties in WWII. Hospitals are full. ICU bed availability is as low as 2-3% in some states. And Christmas hasn't even happened.

Meanwhile, public health officials are having their houses protested and their children terrorized. City councils are voting against mask mandates because of 'freedom' and 'personal choice', even as their friends and family die. And, on rare but notable occasions, those who try to enforce mask rules are assaulted, screamed at, or worse.

So, honestly, the fact that in the midst of all of this, two Covid sceptics took a totally fucking unnecessary trip across the country to visit family from multiple households and then travel in a virus pack to the heart of New York City to see a tree and are horrified that the choice to do that while flying on their preferred airline isn't possible because they haven't done anything to prepare that toddler...that this causes you to blame THE AIRLINE for unreasonable behavior, is absolutely bloody baffling.

All of this. It was 3 days ago our single day death rate beat the attack on Pearl Harbor and 9/11 combined

TrustTheGeneGenie
Sorry, but post as many links as you like, statistically it is extremely rare for a healthy 25 year old to die from Covid. Just because you know someone who has, doesn't mean it is as common as you think it is.

And indeed, only 3.2% of US deaths of people between 25 and 34 are of SARS-CoV-2. A mere 1,909 out of 57,967, in fact, though many of the others will be people that age with underlying fatal conditions as opposed to gun or automobile deaths. 1,909 is a tiny number unless it is your otherwise healthy son or daughter, father or mother, sister or brother, in which case it's a tragedy.

Ah well then. As long as it only happened once that's OK

in that case we best make a list because we have got a lot of things to ban!! Its very unfortunate, but people die every day. Sometimes they are younger than we would like them to be. But to make out like healthy 25yos are dropping dead left right and centre, isn't accurate. Its scaremongering.

flaviaritt

I know it’s their policy. And yet, a policy expecting a 2 year old to wear a mask is inhumane and - I would argue - is a violence to the child.

Sorry it really isn't. Mumsnet posters seem to get more and more hysterical by the day. Over 2's wear a mask no exceptions. Don't want to then dont fly United. I'm fed up with those in the UK inventing reasons why cannot wear a mask yet most of Asia and China seems to not have these conditions that prevent mask use. Violence against the child just undermines real violence against children

It's really not fair to tar all MN posters with flaviaritt's brush.

@flaviaritt

SantasBritchesSpelleas

Here, this rule wouldn’t apply to a 2 year old. Luckily, our government knows this is inhumane and has made a sensible exception to the rules.

I don't believe our government mandates what conditions airlines apply to travel with them, so long as they don't breach equalities legislation.

Forcibly masking 2 year olds is a violation of their rights as children, for unpleasant things to be done to them only in their own interests

OP, you've been asked before to explain how anyone forces these parents to travel by United. Strangely, you seem to have avoided that question.

[quote DinkyDiggies]@Unsure33 - it’s about reducing risk I agree. But surely a quiet 2 year old who sits nicely is a lower risk that non compliant one who is yanking at a mask and screaming about it.

2 is too young, you can’t reason or bribe, so the policy is unfair.[/quote]
Its amazing how you can teach a 2 yo to use the bathroom but it's completely impossible to teach them to wear a mask...It can and is being done with very little effort. Gentle reminders. In fact it's easier to teach a 2yo then ot is a 5yo to wear a mask

Its amazing how you can teach a 2 yo to use the bathroom

and if you knew anything about 2yos you'd know a fair few of them are not even close to being potty trained. Its completely unnatural to a child of that age to wear something over their face, in fact many two year olds refuse coats, hats, gloves - what makes you think you can gently encourage one to wear a mask? or are you some kind of superparent? you ought to start writing a blog because most parents cant reasonably gently encourage two year olds to do many things they dont want to do.

in that case we best make a list because we have got a lot of things to ban!! Its very unfortunate, but people die every day. Sometimes they are younger than we would like them to be. But to make out like healthy 25yos are dropping dead left right and centre, isn't accurate. Its scaremongering.

The thing, the options aren't "perfectly healthy or dead". People end up in hospital but aren't included in the death statistics, there are several people on here who post about having long covid but they wont be in any of the statistics published.

What about injections. Do they violate a toddler's rights. And prescribed medications.

Exposing kids to germs before they can willingly consent is a violation of their rights, really. They should be kept under sanitised lock and key until old enough to decide on that for themselves.

OP how do you feel if someone brings their child into your home and they don't put a nappy on them so your lovely new sofa is covered in wee and poo? How do you feel if they start smashing things. Forcing the child to wear a nappy, taking something off them that they are using to smash things might require some force. It doesn't benefit the child to wear the nappy/stop smashing things, it benefits you. So do you let them wreck your house or is it your house your rules, bit like their plane their rules?