To be hurt that DD secretly recorded me and DH isn't at all bothered?

[CurtainWitcher]

I have a cold at the moment, which might be e clouding my judgement, so quite prepared to be told IAMBU. I hope I am!

DD, just turned thirteen, has been invited to join the county youth choir on Zoom for an informal Christmas singalong for an hour this afternoon. She loves singing, has lessons and is in the school choir, so this isn't out of her comfort zone.

She is very lazy in terms of any sociable activity (even when it's remote and online), so always needs a push. 99% of the time she leaves activities buzzing, asking when she can go again. Her older siblings have now flown the next, so it's good for her to interact with kids at the weekend.

I reminded her about the singalong today and she cried that she wasn't going to do it. Sulking, whining, welling-up. Totally OTT. I said that she'd committed to it, so she would do it. She stormed to her room.

I cooked tea etc. She then comes downstairs and begs me to cancel her attendance. I refuse, saying it's only an hour, she can do it from the comfort of the sofa, she enjoys thoroughly singing etc. I also readily compromised by saying that if she decided she hated it, a few minutes in, she could leave. I didn't like to say that, but this cold has blessed me with a thumping headache, and I just wanted to calm the situation.

I then realise, as her phone was open with screen alit, that she'd been recording me and Whatsapping it to her dad, who wasnt at home as he works overnight on Fridays. He was sympathising with her, but saying that she could calm down and try to help me out while I'm poorly.

So, AIBU to be appalled that DD secretly recorded me? AI also BU to think that DH should have told her off for such underhanded tactics?

This was yesterday evening and I'm still feeling hurt.

Thank you!

For people saying the DD isn't BU to covertly record her, would you say her DH wouldn't be unreasonable if he did that? No one would say it was reasonable for the DH to do it surely, so how do we ensure adults grow up knowing and respecting boundaries like this? We teach them as children (and teenagers!)

She was unreasonable to covertly record her as this isn't acceptable behaviour in an adult (save for recording genuine abuse etc). She is of course not an adult yet though, she is a 13 year old, she may not fully understand how unacceptable it is - this is why she needs telling now! So she grows into a sensible, kind and respectful adult.

You really don't sound kind at all when you're speaking about her though curtain. You use a lot of very negative language - I wouldn't speak about my DCs like that (especially on online in very identifying circumstances). If you want to think about and demonstrate boundaries to your DC, do you think this thread is a good example?

How would you feel if you found out your DD was speaking about you online in a forum like this (for young people obviously) and in a very identifying manner? If you want to discuss invading privacy and "betraying" trust etc, you could start here.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

U think we may be flogging a dead horse at this point. Typical AIBU...

“AIBU?”
"Yes”
*"NO I’M NOT"

No, not at all. There are many posters on this thread who do not feel the OP is being unreasonable.

Exactly. The AIBU wasn't about OP's parenting anyway, it was about her dd recording people without consent. Also, the irony of people saying the OP is violating her dd's boundaries and then saying that they support OP's dd in violating OP's boundaries.

I think the first two comments by rosie and wales are spot on, but would definitely be hurt by my dh and point out not only how he isn’t supporting you but also it’s bad parenting - given how bad this behaviour would look in another environment , be it professional or a relationship and he’s condoning it by his not speaking up.

Erm, I’m probably young enough to be your child. Recording is absolutely normal for younger generations. that doesn’t make it ok. And you do know that sharing recordings of someone without their consent is against the law?

There are two conversations to be had here.

Firstly, she would have her phone removed for making secret recordings, and I would do so not just on the basis she had recorded me, but I would tell her I couldn’t be sure that she hadn’t recorded others, and presumed that she had, so she’d be losing her phone.

Secondly, it’s little wonder that we have teenagers constantly claiming anxiety and lacking in resilience when parents allow them to refuse to do anything they want purely on the basis they don’t want to for fear that they’ll “drive them away.” This phrase “you’ll drive your teenagers away” is so vastly overused and is essentially a threat that can be made against any parent, and is leading to a generation of entitled teenagers who become entitled adults.

She made a commitment to do the choir and I would be telling her that she honours that commitment, and if she really doesn’t want to, then it’s down to her to talk to the teacher about it. I would also be telling her that if she’s so keen to give up an activity she likes and which enables her to interact with others, then she shouldn’t come crying to me that she is lonely and expect me to be available at the time she would ordinarily have spent interacting with others as it’s her choice not to.

@Letsskidaddle

Record her next time she has a teenage tantrum and WhatsApp it to her friends?! 😂 Sorry, not very helpful - I've just come out the other side of the teenage years, fairly unscathed, and can laugh about it now but they all know EXACTLY which buttons to push and push and push!

What she did was annoying (it was meant to be) and could also provide her with evidence of what you agreed! Sounds like dad handled it quite well, telling her to help you out.

Hope you feel better soon 😊

I would never do this or advise anyone to do it - but I would absolutely ask her to reflect on how it would make her feel if you had done that.

It's not clear to me DH would know it's covertly recorded though

Also might be hard to deal with this if he is actually at work (people do work shifts at weekends). I suspect he does not have time to understand the full situation but he hasn't undermined his wife.

And also, at what age do you stop "insisting" your DC partake in activities they don't want to? 13? 15? 17? The "she has always enjoyed it in the past" changes as they grow older. Their wishes need respecting at some point. Forcing them into singing online with other people is nothing like ensuring they eat their vegetables (and that becomes impossible at some stage too! I can't force feed my 16 year old broccoli - I might ask them what veg they prefer and see if we can include that in meals though).

Also DC all have different personalities and some are more introverted than others - it's just the way they are. A lot of socialising takes place online (I don't mean singing) and this year has been hard for a lot of them. I would definitely be cutting her slack on that (but not on the covert recording).

Digital native or not - she is old enough to know that you don't video someone and send it to someone else. You could, if you were so inclined, wait until she's whining and moaning at you and do the same thing to drive home the point.

I would take this opportunity to have a chat with her about boundaries and how videoing and sharing films of people without their consent is not on.

As for pp saying you shouldn't force her to do something she doesn't want? again she is old enough to know what a commitment is. If you make a commitment to something you should see it through or extricate yourself, politely and in a timely manner. And then not be pissed off if you don't get the opportunity to do it another time. Learning about commitments and reliability is a good life lesson.

Teenage years can be absolutely bloody awful and I'm glad they're behind me. They were way way worse than the worst of the toddler meltdowns. Hope you're feeling better, OP.

@ScalpHelp

Why does being recorded make you feel deep offence exactly?

An explanation would help me see your side, otherwise I think there’s an overreaction on your part. It’s 2020 and cameras/phones are part and parcel of life now. It’s normal for young people. It’s how we interact with the world at this point.

You seem to be hurt by the recording itself, as it’s not like she posted it on social media and humiliated you. If you are uncomfortable with your appearance on camera it’s due to your own insecurities, which isn’t really her fault.

In the real world, recording people without their consent is definitely not seen as "part and parcel of life". There is currently a student on a disciplinary in my university because they recorded an online seminar without the consent of other students in the class and refused to delete the recording. The case could end up being escalated beyond the university because of data security issues. That's obviously not the case in the OP's situation, but the fact that this student was obviously raised to think it was OK to record a group of people without their consent has not done them any favours in the real world.

I do not insist anymore at 13 but I do question choices I feel are bad ones eg to drop activites or not attend events. I point out the downside and try to compromise on an alternative. My DD responds very well to that approach.

DH would let them do nothing no qs asked and my mum would have forced me. I am trying to find a middle way whilst being judged by both!

I do feel guilty that my kids have almost no 'constructive activities'. They can't play instruments or sing and they don't play in any sports teams or act in plays or do D of E. I did all that stuff at their age partly through my mum's forcing and partly private schooling. I feel like I am not providing them life experiences and opportunities that I had but it's not through want of offering it's that the buggers don't want them!

Think I have to accept that maybe the world is different and maybe they are different. The only things I felt were non negotiable were learning to swim (safety) and some kind of exercise (health). Not being able to sing, dance, act or play an instrument isn't going to kill you I guess.

Yes, bollocks is covertly recording people the way young people "interact these days" I have young people of my own and they know this is wrong.

(Although, why do they dictate voice to text messages and then send them to each other to have a conversation rather than just ring each other? It fucking baffles me.)

well, @ScalpHelp you may be Erm, I’m probably young enough to be your child. Recording is absolutely normal for younger generations.

use of "erm" is one of the things that makes me irrationally irritated. It is hugely PA.

And the second part, it is beyond belief that you think it is normal. It. Is. Not. Acceptable. To. Film/record. People. Without. Consent.

‘Young enough to be my child’ could realistically mean someone is (at the oldest) about 20. Most of the 20 year olds I know (and I would hope their well-mannered younger peers) know perfectly well that this is not okay.

So she's been attempting to play you and your DH off against each other and was secretly recording you to attempt to cause trouble between you and DH?

That's not on;personally if it was one of mine they'd lose their phone for 24 hours as a punishment.She needs to learn to respect boundaries

Covert recording is a no no in any real world situation and it would be shit parenting not to pull her up on that. I would find it threatening and evidence all trust had broken down.

Such bollocks about 'you should
be OK with it if you have nothing to hide' I am not an abuser but everyone makes mistakes, has a bad day and doesn't deserve to have that recorded for perpetuity. I would not want to be recorded in my own home, streaming with a cold having an argument with a loved one. No-one would surely. And it would not be a fair reflection of my parenting if the calm conversation later was not also recorded.

Brefugee "Digital native or not - she is old enough to know that you don't video someone and send it to someone else."

She didn't video anyone. It was audio only and only sent to her father. Some people are reacting as though she filmed the OP and put it on Facebook or YouTube.

Who cares if it's audio or video??
It's the lack of consent and breach of trust.
Why not just say 'I'm calling dad'

It’s 2020 and cameras/phones are part and parcel of life now. It’s normal for young people. It’s how we interact with the world at this point.

Most schools have a policy of not allowing photographs or videos of students to be taken on school premises. Why would they bother with asking parents for permission to take photos if it was just part of the parcel of life? School plays etc have been filmed by a professional for years and many schools frown upon putting photos and videos of assemblies etc on social media.

Kids watch material covert recordings online but are also aware why. Either they want to catch someone unscrupulous admitting to something they'd never say officially or they want to prank someone. I remember listening to that kind of stuff on radio. Presumably dd was hoping to get op "into trouble" Would she be ok with you covertly recording her? I think that this would stop most teens doing it tbh

People are assuming that dd has clinical anxiety but anxiety is used so freely it's hard to say where on the spectrum she might be feeling.

I think 13 is a good age for her to cancel stuff that she organized. If she'd said yes to her teacher then hours later realised that she'd rather not then I'd be inclined to help more but this was just before the session which could cause inconvenience to the group if they've say allocated solo lines to each singer (no idea how singalongs work)

It's a consent issue to me. Also it's using you to play off against her dad. Your DH should have recognised you weren't speaking to camera ie didn't know you were being recorded and pulled her up on it.

If she gets a taste for recording without consent, it's not good at all. It's underhand and is an abuse of trust and she's not too young to learn that.

@Kaliorphic

I'd be annoyed. Recording you in your own home without consent is not on.

Exactly, anyone recording or photographing me without my consent, which they would never get, would be running the risk of losing their recording device forever, whoever they are!

I really don't understand the tears. Rather than telling her Dad you said x and y, she recorded it so he got the full story. And he backed you up by telling her to look after you. Yes, you need to tell her not to record you as you don't like it but its not that big a deal

Erm, I’m probably young enough to be your child. Recording is absolutely normal for younger generations.

You need to spend an afternoon researching consent and manners. They've clearly evaded you up to this point.

OP
I'm totally on your side. The recording is manipulative and underhand. I'd be incredibly hurt by this.

The fact that she signed up to the singing commitment meant she had a responsibility to attend or to contact the organiser and explain her absence.

jeez - record. Whatever. It. Is. Not. Acceptable.

She's 13 so she has to learn. This time it's recording and sending to her dad. Next time? who knows - maybe to her whats app friends group? the internet? she is 13 and the adults in her life have to teach her that this is wrong. I really don't know how people aren't getting this. Or is it all your kids who are uploading bullying videos of their peers to YouTube? because they never learned anything different?

The learning about commitment is also an important thing. Otherwise we wouldn't have thread after thread after thread of people complaining that their flaky friends are always late, dropping them at the last minute in favour of something better etc etc. If you make a commitment (and the DD asked to do this) then you either keep it or you are polite and get yourself out of it and accept that a consequence of a late cancellation is that people treat you as unreliable.

My teenagers used to flop around "i'm booorrrreeeedddd" and i made suggestions of things to do that i knew they liked - everything too boring. So i told them to learn how to cope with boredom and that was that. No "I'm borreeeeddddd" and then bugging me about it after I've given them 42 suggestions of things they might want to do. Tantrums about it got a "talk to the hand, go in your room and think about how to behave"

OP - i think you might have to bite the bullet of living with a teenager who needs to learn to make her own fun. So if she wants you to play with her, and you're up for that, do it. But if it's inconvenient or you don't want to - she'll have to learn to make her own fun. But i wouldn't be putting myself out to make fun for her, or arrange things for her unless she asked for my specific help. And then the lesson about making commitments would apply.

To the posters who think it's reasonable to record her...
Would it be equally reasonable for mum to record the daughter crying and shouting about not wanting to attend the signing thing and sending it to her teacher as a way to explain her absence?

Dear God, this thread is insane. I don't think you've done anything wrong at all.

@CurtainWitcher If my child had recorded me in the hopes of playing me off with their father, the phone would be gone. Being recorded without permission in your own home is not OK at all. And it wasn't exactly for personal use if she sent it to someone else. Requiring your child to follow through with the commitments is not abuse, how ridiculous.

I can't believe what I'm reading here, to be honest.