to think 'Fuck em, if you want No Deal Brexit so hard, then enjoy it' and fuck you if it turns out shit for you

[chomalungma]

I am past caring now.
I feel for people who didn't want Brexit. Who know all the implications and can see the issues that are coming.

But if you want No Deal Brexit and it fucks you up, tough shit.

You wanted it. You get it. You own it.

And pardon me if I don't give a shit anymore about you.

bellinisurge
Thank you. He's still one generation to far though, it's his great grandparents who were Irish. He checked it all out before his mum even got her passport.

Do you honestly think the public would not hold them to account at the next election?

No they won't, no one held Thatcher to account after the changes she introduced.... or what she did to the coal mining industry or the tories for 10 years of austerity... or putting tuition fees up to 9250 p.a.

Nope, we'll carrying on voting the way the Tory press tell us too.

And the flaw in your argument is that I was only saying democracy would be no less when we come out.

What I'm reading between the lines from your posts is that you feel European politics is more aligned with your own than UK politics, and that it's not about democracy at all - it's about having politicians that you like but can't vote in because in this country your views are minority views.

no one held Thatcher to account after the changes she introduced because people either weren't too fussed or actually agreed with her or on balance, decided to support her because of the overall "Thatcher" package.

I'm sure my friends mum has absolutely no regrets about her vote and would rather have Brexit and never see her grandchildren again than not have Brexit. Again YouGov polling shows Leave voters would vote Brexit even if the vote directly damaged their adult children.

I somehow doubt that the Tory party will introduce a different voting system to ensure that people who feel left out of the voting process get more involved.

I also think that there is little chance of the Tory party giving more power to the regions of England.

^And the flaw in your argument is that I was only saying democracy would be no less when we come out.*

I disagree. We had a say and a vote on terms of trade in the EU, we have no say on WTO rules.

Read into what you like but you are wrong, i do not pretend to know how you think do i?

As for the "majority" thats perhaps more my issue, whether its Lab or Con, we are always governed by a minority of the voters, Brexit was supported by 37% of the electorate, Johnson is in power but put there by 43% of the public.

The majority of voters voted against the tories.

@Applesonthelawn

no one held Thatcher to account after the changes she introduced because people either weren't too fussed or actually agreed with her or on balance, decided to support her because of the overall "Thatcher" package.

So good, you agree with me, the electorate do not hold politicians to account.

That can only be because you held a minority view.

Incorrect. An absolute majority voted for a second referendum last year, but the votes were divided between two parties so the minority view held by the Tories won.

"no one held Thatcher to account after the changes she introduced because people either weren't too fussed or actually agreed with her or on balance, decided to support her because of the overall "Thatcher" package."

Says someone who doesn't know their history.

Johnson/Tories have 4 more years, he can do a hell of alot before you get your say again and rights once removed are rarely re introduced.

They can be easily be put in a Labour manifesto and reintroduced and one would imagine if you are talking, for example, about employment rights then Labour would be a shoe in at the next election.

There is also the option for Kier Starmer to step up at anytime between now and 2024 and call a vote of no confidence.

Mrs Thatcher did huge good in this country. Before that in the 1970s we were the "sick man of Europe" and had to go cap in hand to the IMF and people were out on strike all the time, there were 20 year council housing waiting lists, 3 day weeks, power cuts and all sorts. We are very lucky to have had her.

Labour has not won an election since 2005 because the British people have more sense. Long may it stay that way.

Labour has not won an election since 2005 because the British people have more sense. Long may it stay that way

I am sure that the Tories will turn too far to the right and then people will see them for what they have become.

@chomalungma

Labour has not won an election since 2005 because the British people have more sense. Long may it stay that way

I am sure that the Tories will turn too far to the right and then people will see them for what they have become.

That's an interesting way of putting it - seeing as they were in power till 2010.

Johnson/Tories have 4 more years, he can do a hell of alot before you get your say again and rights once removed are rarely re introduced

They can be easily be put in a Labour manifesto and reintroduced and one would imagine if you are talking, for example, about employment rights then Labour would be a shoe in at the next election

The tories have removed many employment rights, run down the NHS, caused huge staff shortages, causing v long waiting lists but are still here.

There is also the option for Kier Starmer to step up at anytime between now and 2024 and call a vote of no confidence

To win, it would require at least 40 tory MPs to support it and then a 2/3rd majority for GE.

Not likely is it?

20 year council housing waiting lists
Thankfully no longer an issue since Thatcher sold them all.

Incorrect. An absolute majority voted for a second referendum last year, but the votes were divided between two parties so the minority view held by the Tories won.

The downfall there was a lot of people bought into the whole tactical voting thing, which was last successful about 20+ years ago. Despite what some people say 2019 was a General Election on one issue only and as we know only one party was running on a remain/2nd ref ticket and got their worst turnout ever and Labour, well it was all very fuzzy what was going on there. It was a bit of an omnishambles for both parties really. To say an absolute majority voted for a second referendum is a bit of a jump (in my opinion).

There is also the option for Kier Starmer to step up at anytime between now and 2024 and call a vote of no confidence I wish people would spell the bloody man's name correctly.
KEIR KEIR after KEIR Hardie

@chomalungma

What I learned recently is that people vote Tory when they think they are rich. Their house might be worth a lot, but generally it’s mortgaged so really it’s the banks that owns the house until the mortgage is paid off.

It’s a clever Tory tactic to get more people on the property ladder through various schemes like Help to Buy and low interest rates. House prices have only artificially risen through various factors but living in a house worth a lot of money makes people think they are rich. The small detail of “actually the bank owns this” is somewhat inconvenient.

People vote by self-interest. Money makes people right-wing and inegalitarian.

If there’s a recession (caused by a combination of covid, Brexit and any other spanner in the works) then people may start to be more Tory sceptical...

I don't know if Lab would have won had Starmer or similar been in charge in 2019 but it would have been a lot closer.

Yes i agree the main issue was Brexit and getting it "done" after 4 years of dither but Labour did themselves no favours at all with Corbyn as leader.

There didn't appear to be too much tactical voting, the LDs were destroyed and many Lab voters turned against JC.

Xenia - there is nothing that Labour could do which is anywhere near the disaster that the Conservatives have brought on this country since 2016. The UK’s reputation for competence is in tatters, and the economic damage is unforgiveable.

@jasjas1973

I don't know if Lab would have won had Starmer or similar been in charge in 2019 but it would have been a lot closer.

Yes i agree the main issue was Brexit and getting it "done" after 4 years of dither but Labour did themselves no favours at all with Corbyn as leader.

There didn't appear to be too much tactical voting, the LDs were destroyed and many Lab voters turned against JC.

The positive is that the large Tory victory means they own Brexit. If it goes badly then it’s totally on them. So there’s more incentive to get it right: there’s no scapegoat.

So sorry Derxa, I have a friend called KIER who I do tend to text more frequently than I do KEIR Hardie or KEIR Starmer. Which is fortunate really because I'm an I before E except after C kinda gal.

The positive is that the large Tory victory means they own Brexit. If it goes badly then it’s totally on them. So there’s more incentive to get it right: there’s no scapegoat

thats working out well isn't it?