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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think 'Fuck em, if you want No Deal Brexit so hard, then enjoy it' and fuck you if it turns out shit for you

999 replies

chomalungma · 11/12/2020 19:04

I am past caring now.
I feel for people who didn't want Brexit. Who know all the implications and can see the issues that are coming.

But if you want No Deal Brexit and it fucks you up, tough shit.

You wanted it. You get it. You own it.

And pardon me if I don't give a shit anymore about you.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TheMethodicalMeerkat · 12/12/2020 13:38

@rachelbloomfan

My brother said the same thing to me because he knew I’d voted to leave, that he hoped I’d suffer and be destitute as a result of Brexit as I voted for it. It’s one of the last things he ever said to me before he unexpectedly dropped dead out of the blue in his 30s a month later, and it made me cry. It’s a horrible memory to keep coming back to you when your brother dies. Especially when we generally got on well. I don’t recommend holding onto these sort of grudges especially within families. It’s a really nasty sentiment and I think Brexit has been so horribly divisive for his country. I do wish we had never had the referendum.

I’d just like to say that not all people who voted leave are thick right wing boomer racists. I do deeply regret how I voted, and quite quickly, in fact I was quite shocked when I realised leave had won. I thought it hadn’t a hope in hell but I wanted to cast a protest vote which would wipe the smug grin off David Cameron’s face which I was so devastated to see after the Conservatives won the previous election (I voted for Milliband and Labour) and make him realise that the Westminster bubble doesn’t speak for the whole country, that people were suffering and struggling in the UK, and that the status quo was not something everyone was happy to settle for. The Leave messaging of “things are so great now, why would anyone in their right mind change it” was awful. Things weren’t great at all for me as a single mother trying to recover from domestic abuse back then or many people I knew personally and through my work. All the things we are seeing unmasked now during the pandemic, the inadequacies of the NHS, the proliferation of food banks, the people falling through the cracks of the welfare state, the lack of worker rights, the high costs of housing, all of that was clear to see even back then (clearly it’s got worse) and I couldn’t stand the thought that he would get a huge Remain victory, think everything is fine in the UK and that everyone agrees fully with how he is governing with austerity. My heart was breaking for what I could see happening to the country.

I thought it would shake things up (and obviously it did!) if the vote was closer than predicted but I still thought Remain would have it at the end of the day, it was predicted to win by a landslide. I also thought if Leave won that it would force the PM to resign (which it did) and that the Tories would have to rethink how they are governing and do it in a kinder more inclusive way, paying a bit more attention to the left wing this time. I thought it might force a general election which Labour or at least the Lib Dems might have a chance of winning this time. Got that wrong! But I was genuinely motivated to Vote Leave as a way of getting the Tories out and not entrenching their rule and shifting them to the right of their party. I may be naive but I personally hadn’t seen that coming.

I also thought that the vote was not going to be taken as written in stone but would simply be a message that people in the country aren’t happy and change is needed. And then they’d go away and analyse why people had voted as they did and look at what changes needed to be made. And whether people were unhappy domestically or if it was really about the EU. I definitely bought they’d go away and hammer out what was possible and then come back at least to Parliament if not the country for approval before making any rash moves like triggering Article 50. I remember being aghast when May did that and thinking why would she do that when we haven’t a clue about the details, why would you give yourself less time in a complicated negotiation...

Perhaps it was the wrong vote to try to use to make a change (ok it definitely was!) but living in a very safe Tory seat it was the only vote in which I could be heard in any way at all. I suspect there were also elements of personally reacting to being told what to do by the Remain messaging and wanting to show them that they can’t tell me how to vote. Particularly for someone who has been through domestic abuse, something in me just felt furious that the government were wasting taxpayers money on leaflets telling us that we had to vote Remian for the status quo or the sky would fall in, and as things were just so wonderful now, why would anyone rock the boat? I was tired of being a good girl and doing what I was told and living a pretty miserable life while everyone around said how wonderful the UK was currently so we should preserve the status quo. I felt as though I was living in a dictatorship where we were being told the right way to think by the government and the only way to make them understand that this is still a democracy was to vote Leave (might have accidentally been brainwashed by Farage et al on that one...) I freely admit I should have thought a bit harder about the actual issue we were voting on... I had no issue with the EU which is the tragic thing, in fact later on I recalled that EU worker legislation had had a directly positive impact on my personal working conditions in the past, and I had been a fool to vote as I did. But too late. I am definitely a Bregretter; we do exist and I wish I had voted differently, I know my parents do too (my younger siblings all voted remain). So perhaps when you read my story you might feel less like we all deserve to die in a ditch. Or perhaps you still feel that way. I’m just saying we are all human and there were multiple complex reasons for voting leave. I’m not defending it, I’m just saying it’s not as straightforward as it’s been boiled down to in the media. And people like me are frightened to admit we voted leave so keep schtum about it, most of my friends assume I voted remain and I haven’t corrected them as they would not understand.

@rachelbloomfan I just wanted to acknowledge your honest post and say that I think in 2016 this was true for many leave voters.

Here in Ireland we absolutely know from experience that for many voters a referendum is as much an opportunity to express anger, frustration and discontent at the government as it is about what’s on the ballot paper. It’s such a pity Cameron didn’t realise this and was too fucking arrogant to think about it before calling the 2016 referendum. Had he asked his Irish counterpart:

hey, you lot have a referendum at the drop of a hat, any advice?

he would have been warned that a referendum is an opportunity for the voting public to give the government of the day a bloody nose!

What is so unfortunate for the UK is that not enough people considered the various motivations for the leave vote when the results came in. For many on the remain side it has been easier to point at the racist and xenophobic reasons (and these we’re definitely true for some) than to acknowledge that actually the status quo in the UK wasn’t good for millions and hadn’t been for a very long time. Of course some people think it’s just remainers who don’t get this but that’s not true. The drivers of the leave campaign, ably assisted by much of the media, have wilfully ignored the reasons so many UK citizens used this referendum as a protest vote. After all the wealthy and powerful leave campaigners had very different motivations for pushing leave and it’s certainly not in their interests to acknowledge what voters like rachelbloomfan were hoping to achieve with their vote. Cos addressing inequality in the UK just ain’t the plan...

So the leave politicians and vested interests interpreted the 2016 result to mean what they wanted it to mean (again, ably assisted by main stream media). “Leave” was defined after the vote and in the 4.5 years since it has been redefined again and again to mean whatever those in power want it to mean to the point that now “Leave” apparently means the hardest Brexit possible! And unfortunately there are enough leave voters doubling down and insisting yes, yes, that IS what I intended in 2016 even though a no-deal Brexit wasn’t on anyone’s radar back then Hmm.

Despite all the noise and fury and distraction of the last 4.5 years, it’s still true that millions of people in the UK feel exactly as rachelbloomfan outlined and deal/no deal doesn’t address these problems which are of course an internal UK matter and nothing to do with the EU or whatever other perceived “enemy” Boris and his ilk might point to next.

The UK is coming to a reckoning with itself. It’s been a long time coming, it will probably be a slow and painful process but it has to happen. Once out of the EU it won’t be as easy to blame everyone else for the UKs problems - the blame game will work for a while but not forever. Sooner or later the people of the UK will look to their own government and the inequality built into their own society and will hopefully start to ask questions like who are we and who do we want to be as a society/nation instead of obsessing on long past “glory”days.

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/12/2020 13:40

Do the people on here who voted remain and now sneer down their middle class noses

I'm not sneering. Neither my nose, nor any other part of my anatomy is middle class. I live in a council house, in a poverty stricken inner city zone that most people would be afraid to walk through @wewillmeetagain. An area that overwhelmingly voted Remain because of the very real physical dangers that are increased by Brexit.Hmm

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 12/12/2020 13:43

[quote Europilgrim]@wewillmeetagain - and plenty of Leavers are very well-off indeed. Probably best not to sneer at anyone.[/quote]
I find it safer...

wewillmeetagain · 12/12/2020 13:43

@Europilgrim I'm sorry that's complete rubbish! The NHS while being underfunded is overwhelmed! No government has an endless supply of money to throw at it! I work for the NHS and the vast amounts of money that are wasted are disgusting. Not enough GP services for example so A&E overwhelmed with people for minor problems because they can't get a GP, and I'm sorry but yes lots of these are immigrants! Again you are just dismissing legitimate concerns! My trust has very few EU immigrant nurses compared with other nationalities, I can't speak for other trusts.

mummmy2017 · 12/12/2020 13:45

This is not to do with glorious past.
The EU has locked countries into one currency, it's not working.
It demands countries not help their own industry's.
It is a gravy train, that refuses to police it's own expenses, and just ups it's budgets, the vanity projects are phenomenal.
There will be different rules but....
You will be able to study abroad.
You will still be able to work abroad.
You will still be able to live abroad...

Europilgrim · 12/12/2020 13:46

Again you are just dismissing legitimate concerns!
No, I know they are concerns but that doesn't mean you just blame whoever you like.

Have a look here at how the number of EU NHS staff has fallen:
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/#:~:text=The%20percentage%20of%20NHS%20joiners,16%20to%206%25%20in%202019.

This is a real concern and actually contributes to the problem. The government has underfunded the NHS for a long time and Brexit has made it WORSE. That's not dismissing legitimate concerns, that's called looking for real causes and solutions.

chomalungma · 12/12/2020 13:47

You will still be able to work abroad

You will still be able to live abroad

If you have the money or the skills....

OP posts:
Europilgrim · 12/12/2020 13:48

There will be different rules but....
You will be able to study abroad.
You will still be able to work abroad.
You will still be able to live abroad...

Not everyone though. Just a lucky (rich) few. And there is not one currency for the EU so again, this is just another untruth on a whole thread of them... Hmm

PolkadotGiraffe · 12/12/2020 14:04

@GirlsBlouse17

The EU has NOT at any point said we have to follow EU standards to sign an agreement. What they have said is that IF we choose to try to gain competitive advantage by slashing our environmental standards or employment standards etc, so that they fall significantly below the EU level - in an attempt to reduce UK companies' cost base and undercut EU businesses - then we will not have tariff-free access to their markets. That is a perfectly reasonable position, entirely their right, and has been their stated position since before the referendum. It is entirely logical and obvious that they would protect their own jobs and companies in this way. How is anybody surprised about this

I'm just wondering whether the EU has made the same demands of other countries it has deals with such as the USA. Do they have to align their employment standards too?

The level of access is proportional to the alignment of standards. The US does not have unfettered, tariff free access to the single market. Ever imported anything from the US?

Barnier set out the various options that are possible for an EU trade agreement years ago with reference to the various agreements the EU has with non-member states (which we were also party to!). This highlights the level of compliance versus level of access in each case. For years, the EU has simply been asking the UK where on the "staircase" it wants to be. The problem has always been that the UK cakeists refuse to choose a step: they want all the access and none of the alignment on standards because the UK is oh so special that the EU should break its own laws and frameworks to accommodate UK demands. HmmConfused

to think 'Fuck em, if you want No Deal Brexit so hard, then enjoy it' and fuck you if it turns out shit for you
MaMaLa321 · 12/12/2020 14:04

Just don't come complaining when your factory shuts down and relocates to the EU because there are less barriers to production and market there
that happened near me, while we were in the EU. EU funds paid for the new factory in Poland

Eleganz · 12/12/2020 14:11

Do the people on here who voted remain and now sneer down their middle class noses at all the " thickos, racist imbeciles" that dared to go against their wishes not realise that they are actually part of the cause of this? What started with Tony Blair et al, in suppressing people's legitimate issues with screams of racism and accusations has not got to a point where those people are now fighting back and Brexit is one of the consequences of this!

It's a nice story, but it isn't true. It is fabricated by those who wish to encourage right wing sentiment in working class communities left behind by the liberalism of the 80's Tory government.

I'm from a white working class community in northern England. In the 60's and 70's the place was doing okay, unemployment was low, wages were relatively good and children were fed, clothed and generally happy. In the 80's the Tory government shut down the major industry (mining) and provided little to no support for people to retrain and seek work elsewhere. Unemployment rose sharply, poverty rose sharply, drug use rose sharply, anti-social behaviour rose sharply. Young people who managed to get an education started leaving. Public services were forgotten about. It utterly ripped the heart out of the community. Then new Labour came in and basically plastered over the cracks. Eventually some low skilled, low wage employers arrived and along with them a small amount of eastern European migrants because there were actually more jobs than the local population could fill. Then the Tories came in and all that "plastering support" that new Labour put in (things like sure start, etc.) went, along with cuts in public services and welfare benefits.

The BNP had had a small foothold in the are during the Labour government promoted by a few hardcore racists but they never got very far beyond the oldies in the miner's welfare. Following 2010, this racist sentiment really started to grow. In the longer build up to the 2016 referendum I heard more and more people for the place openly expressing racist sentiment and being encouraged to blame all the economic woes of the place on the eastern European immigrants by ex-BNP members who now were wearing the purple rosettes of UKIP. Most people I knew who voted to leave from my hometown (including my mum and dad) were quite open that sending the eastern Europeans and others back was a key reason (as well as bendy bananas and not taking orders from the Germans).

So, yes uneducated, racist sentiment was a key factor in the leave vote in areas like my hometown. All cooked up to serve a purpose that will not benefit these communities and just plays on their fears and latent prejudices. I find it deeply sad and it has utterly alienated me from the place I grew up in. From friends in similar situations I can see this replicated across the north of England.

VerlynWebbe · 12/12/2020 14:19

What a pointless thread.

Leavers - you think you voted to leave because some liberal elite middle class types pissed you off with their attitude? Mugs. It’s pathetic, Britain’s fucked now.

Remainers - you think leavers voted to leave because they’re undereducated and racist? Newsflash, we all are. They were duped but so were you.

Roll on the disaster capitalism eh?

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 12/12/2020 14:25

Remainers - you think leavers voted to leave because they’re undereducated and racist

No

KinseyWinsey · 12/12/2020 14:31

@VerlynWebbe I've asked leavers why they voted that way and have never received a coherent answer.

It's tricky.

KinseyWinsey · 12/12/2020 14:32

@Mamamia456 did that happen as a direct result of the UK being members of the EU?

Was it a direct cause of the factory closing down?

MsSafina · 12/12/2020 14:46

Fact is, we trade with many other countries in the world on WTO terms. The EU is asking that we align with them on all their regulations and laws which they haven't demanded of any other country they have an FTA with.

TheWichitaWineOne · 12/12/2020 14:46

Remainers - you think leavers voted to leave because they’re undereducated and racist

No of course not. But the government did not orchestrate a campaign that played on racist undercurrents and tensions for nothing. Farage did not whip up racist sideshows for nothing. I've said upthread that Brexit was never to do with immigration and jobs - it was always the ultra-right wet dream of deregulation that was the goal.

They knew exactly what paranoia and scratch-the-surface tensions they were hoping to unleash.

It's like Trump: not all Trump voters are racist, but all racists are Trump voters.

TheSunIsStillShining · 12/12/2020 14:57

@mummmy2017

This is not to do with glorious past. The EU has locked countries into one currency, it's not working. It demands countries not help their own industry's. It is a gravy train, that refuses to police it's own expenses, and just ups it's budgets, the vanity projects are phenomenal. There will be different rules but.... You will be able to study abroad. You will still be able to work abroad. You will still be able to live abroad...
  1. No. Countries CHOSE to become part of the Eurozone. Nobody forced them. UK opted not to. Because there was a choice
  1. It demands countries not help their own industry's.
How? What they are saying is that countries should not over subsidise certain industries and thus get advantage over others. It's a pretty fair ask.
  1. It is a gravy train, that refuses to police it's own expenses, and just ups it's budgets, the vanity projects are phenomenal.
Because the UK gov is really thrifty. Let's see: 750+ lord's expenses to start with. £200m to friends and family....

4.You will be able to study abroad.
Yes, with a visa and for a much higher price! And less scholarship and bursasy options.
Again, that will help massively.

  1. You will still be able to work abroad.
Visa, other rules. And why on earth would a company dole out extra cash on visa when they can employ EU people? The work you talk about will be mostly highly specialized.
  1. You will still be able to live abroad...
If you have a working visa + god know what other criteria you fulfill.

Could you have another go at trying to paint these in a positive picture given the facts?

CharlotteRose90 · 12/12/2020 15:03

I agree 100% all the idiots that voted for us to leave has royally screwed us over. We now have to suffer because people listened to complete bullshit and want to take us back to the old days. Scotland and Wales will leave us next and to be honest I don’t blame them. This country’s a joke.

Havanananana · 12/12/2020 15:05

I'm just wondering whether the EU has made the same demands of other countries it has deals with such as the USA.

The EU does not have a FTA with the USA.

The USA wanted one, TTIP, but it was so heavily weighted in favour of the USA that the EU rejected it.

TheSunIsStillShining · 12/12/2020 15:06

@VerlynWebbe I've asked leavers why they voted that way and have never received a coherent answer.

This is my experience as well, so from my side I'm not going to play nice and be sympathetic about how they were duped. No. People who voted for Leave are misinformed, incapable of individual and critical thinking and probably racist people.
Sugarcoating the fact that 17m people could be mislead to this extent is stupid in itself.
The system that allowed this to happen is a parody of democracy and there would need to be safety gates* to ensure that this won't happen again.

*Yes, multi generational decisions should involve the younger as they have 70-80 years that they have to live with it and exclude those who will not contribute or live long enough to actually have to bear the brunt of it. Any such decision should be a vast majority vote (75% of all population). Any such decision should be based on facts. Whoever lies has to be accountable and held up in court.
And decisions like these should not be decided in a referendum that is only advisory.

TheSunIsStillShining · 12/12/2020 15:08

@MsSafina

Fact is, we trade with many other countries in the world on WTO terms. The EU is asking that we align with them on all their regulations and laws which they haven't demanded of any other country they have an FTA with.
You do know that on products from the US you have to pay customs!? This implies, even if you don't know for a fact, that there is no free trade agreement between EU-USA. You just need to make 1 small logical step (or look it up on google).
TheSunIsStillShining · 12/12/2020 15:11

Fact is, we trade with many other countries in the world on WTO terms.
No, the EU has trade deals, not WTO terms.

And another thing:

"WTO terms are relatively comprehensive on goods but far less so on services-( 45% of UK exports). Barriers to trade in services in particular will increase substantially under WTO terms"
This will be fun. ...

Have a read:
ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf

Although I'm guessing nobody will read it, especially leavers as facts often get in the way of their narrative.... so they just dismiss them.

Moonmelodies · 12/12/2020 15:19

I guess if it doesn't work out we can have a vote to rejoin.

MrsMomoa · 12/12/2020 15:21

wewillmeetagain

Why do people harp on about the lies and 350 million promised to the NHS? It was NEVER promised that 350 million would be spent on the NHS it was used as an example of how much we would be saving and what it could be used on! The EU are now playing hardball making an example of us because they want to scare other countries within the EU about what will happen if they try and leave! It's going to be a no deal and we just have to get on with it now. It seems some people only respect democracy when they get their own way.

100% this!
Well said! Smile