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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are people right to be worried about the vaccine?

439 replies

CutToChase · 11/12/2020 06:26

I had a "good tempered" argument with DP last night. He says theres no way hes putting something in his body that hasnt undergone all the checks and tests and says that normally vaccines take 20 years to approve.

I think that when I have a choice between a known negative (covid) and an unknown (vaccine) I will always take the unknown.

In response he says people have forgotten a minuscule proportion of people actually suffer from covid. He says this is all about money (however he is a conspiracy theorist...)

What do you think about the vaccine and the speed of it?

Also vote:
YABU = I will not be getting the vaccine
YANBU = I will be getting the vaccine

OP posts:
MaryLeeOnHigh · 15/12/2020 13:22

@Eckhart

Has any newly introduce medication ever created unexpected long term side effects before?
The comparator should be vaccination, not the entire spectrum of medication.
VinylDetective · 15/12/2020 13:24

If he’s over 80, can I have his, please?

UserEleventyNine · 15/12/2020 13:25

Extended article here on how the Oxford vaccine was created and tested:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55308216

Eckhart · 15/12/2020 14:31

The comparator should be vaccination, not the entire spectrum of medication

Has anything else that a large group of people have been advised by trained professionals to put inside their body ever created unexpected long term side effects before?

Is that better, or would you like to nitpick the question further instead of answering it? Nobody seems to have an answer for either the question or the question you corrected it to, which is curious.

MaryLeeOnHigh · 15/12/2020 23:44

@Eckhart

The comparator should be vaccination, not the entire spectrum of medication

Has anything else that a large group of people have been advised by trained professionals to put inside their body ever created unexpected long term side effects before?

Is that better, or would you like to nitpick the question further instead of answering it? Nobody seems to have an answer for either the question or the question you corrected it to, which is curious.

No, it isn't better, nor was I in any way nitpicking. As has already been pointed out on this thread, you can really only compare vaccination with vaccination, and not with anything that people consume orally and on a regular basis. That is because vaccines work in a completely different way and dissipate relatively quickly after triggering the development of antibodies. No-one is answering your question because it is not relevant to this discussion..
Eckhart · 15/12/2020 23:48

So @MaryLeeOnHigh what you're saying is that a vaccine cannot have any long term, damaging side effects?

ncailleach · 15/12/2020 23:57

I have not read the full thread but a friend was talking to me recently about swine flu vaccination and side effects. It was deemed safe until proven otherwise www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html also www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/1104/1175953-vaccine-case/

canigooutyet · 16/12/2020 01:35

There can be long term side effects from any medication, including vaccinations. It's one of the reasons why the UK has the Victim Damage Payout scheme.

This will be no different and those risks are mentioned in the proper documents. However, unlike all the vaccines currently on the market this is not covered under this scheme, nor will Pfizer be held accountable. This is something that people should also take into consideration when thinking about the vaccine.

There is nothing wrong with looking at what we put in our bodies, a lot of us do look at the ingredients in food, avoid medication that makes them feel worse and more.

This should be no different. And of course there will be questions.. It's a part of us to question things to enable us to make informed choices.

Anyway on a side note, NHS is looking for Plasma donors who have had CV19. For more info

www.nhsbt.nhs.uk/how-you-can-help/convalescent-plasma-clinical-trial/

UnmentionedElephantDildo · 16/12/2020 08:31

@Eckhart

So *@MaryLeeOnHigh* what you're saying is that a vaccine cannot have any long term, damaging side effects?
What do you mean by 'long term'

Late to appear - no, the short acting nature of very vaccine mass that none have ever been known. If you think these two new to humans vaccines will have them, what sort of process in the body would produce them -ie tell us the working hypothesis of what you have read

Eckhart · 16/12/2020 09:30

@UnmentionedElephantDildo

My question was answered above by the person who posted the 2 articles regarding a rushed vaccine that caused long term health problems for a small number of its recipients.

If you're making out that you don't understand what someone means when they say 'long term side effects', and answering their question with a question, it looks a lot like you're trying to avoid the question itself.

Eckhart · 16/12/2020 09:30

@UnmentionedElephantDildo

Your name is great, btw Smile

UnmentionedElephantDildo · 16/12/2020 09:39

It's blazingly obvious that there are two possible meanings of 'long term' in this context and I am seeking to deal with them one at a time.

Is 'late onset' what some/any posters are asking about? And if so, could they say what their source suggests is the means by which they would arise?

It's a very valid angle - for example there are differences between wild measles and vaccine strain attenuated measles icw SSPE

Eckhart · 16/12/2020 09:46

Well, it means 'lasts for a long time'

www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/long-term

Late onset means that the onset is late, and I would assume that if people say that, they don't mean long term, because the two things have completely different meanings.

I was asking in terms of 'lasting a long time'.

Do you have an answer, or just more questions?

TeenPlusTwenties · 16/12/2020 10:12

Lots of things may have late onset impact.

Just look at IVF.
That has only been going for 42 years.
Who knows what the impact on women in their 80s/90s there might be from having had IVF in their 30s/40s.
But women keep having IVF because the potential (not guaranteed by any means) benefits outweigh some unknown in the future.

There is no reason to suppose that this vaccine will have late onset negative impact.
There is every reason to suppose it will have immediate positive impact.

No brainer as far as I am concerned.

Eckhart · 16/12/2020 10:30

There is no reason to suppose that this vaccine will have late onset negative impact

There is reason to suppose there is a risk, though. Because there is. People who are more risk averse have a right to be risk averse, and not to be made to feel guilty for not having something put into their body that they don't feel safe with.

I suppose that if lots of people refuse to have it, there'll be a lot of information put out about how safe it is. Until they say 'There is no risk', there will be people who refuse it.

boobot1 · 16/12/2020 10:35

@CutToChase

I had a "good tempered" argument with DP last night. He says theres no way hes putting something in his body that hasnt undergone all the checks and tests and says that normally vaccines take 20 years to approve.

I think that when I have a choice between a known negative (covid) and an unknown (vaccine) I will always take the unknown.

In response he says people have forgotten a minuscule proportion of people actually suffer from covid. He says this is all about money (however he is a conspiracy theorist...)

What do you think about the vaccine and the speed of it?

Also vote:
YABU = I will not be getting the vaccine
YANBU = I will be getting the vaccine

If you're under 60 you don't really need it.
pinbinpin · 16/12/2020 10:38

As an aside. The rare narcolepsy side effect that was associated with the swine flu vaccine was found to be associated with the adjuvant (booster) used in it, not the vaccine itself, and has been withdrawn. The Pfizer vaccine (and, I believe, the Oxford one) don't contain an adjuvant as create a strong enough immune response on their own.

The reason that people are splitting hairs over "long term" effect from a vaccine is that is not really how they work. As a PP said, they are designed to go in, stimulate your immune system to create antibodies and then are dispersed (within a matter of days). Your own immune system creates the antibodies to the disease that that vaccine was mimicking. So any undesired negative side effects are going to be either immediate in an allergic reaction to one of the components - would happen very quickly and, likely, only to people who have an "abnormal" highly reactive immune system that is easily overstimulated (what an allergy is) and would probably know that they have multiple allergies, carry an epipen etc - or, a consequence of your own body's immune system doing something else undesired/negative as a result of the "kick" it received from the vaccine - what happened to the boy that developed narcolepsy and an auto-immune condition after having the swine flu vaccine. He most probably had an "odd" genetic outlier immune system to start with and would most likely have had auto immune issues, of some degree, as he got older, with or without the vaccine.

So the question for me has always been along the lines of, is the chance of me or my children, getting this disease, and could it be bad enough, much higher than the chance of me being a genetic outlier with an "odd" immune system that may respond adversely to this vaccine. So far, the answer has always been in favour of the vaccine, except for chicken pox where I decided that there was no need for the vaccine and I was ok with my kids just getting chicken pox.

As an adult of nearly 50, I think I can be reasonably certain that any unusual immune response would probably (not definitely, it's all about probability) have shown up by now. Just as I know I can drink alcohol in moderation without any real danger of becoming an alcoholic. Yet there are plenty of people out there who shouldn't really put alcohol in their bodies because it makes them violent, they get addicted, become alcoholics etc.

Obviously with children you probably have to be more careful as their immune system / genetic outlier status is less tested. Which is why they don't give vaccines to under 16s if they are not particularly affected by the disease - like here with Covid. Having said that, my children have had all their childhood vaccines and have the nasal flu vaccine every year, with zero side effects, so the chance are in favour of the fact that they would be fine with getting this, or any other, vaccine.

It's a simple equation for me. How bad is the thing they are vaccinating against and how much do I not want to get it (no health concerns so would likely be mild, but I worry about long covid effects having seen some friends suffering badly, could pass it to overweight, diabetic mother and kill her, is stopping me socialising and having fun) > the chance of me suffering a severe unanticipated side effect from the vaccine itself (very low for me, no previous auto-immune issues, no allergies, had lots of vaccines in the past without issue, it's a simple formulation vaccine with no weird adjuvants or chemical preservatives that I can see).

Scrutiny is entirely appropriate and everyone has to weigh up that formula differently. If you're pregnant, carry an epipen, have an auto-immune condition etc, the equation may be different than mine. I do find it weird though that people don't apply the same degree of scrutiny to trying a new food, or a new brand of Gin, or a new medication that the GP prescribes for blood pressure, or whatever.

Eckhart · 16/12/2020 10:59

I do find it weird though that people don't apply the same degree of scrutiny to trying a new food, or a new brand of Gin, or a new medication that the GP prescribes for blood pressure, or whatever

That's an interesting point. I suppose we assume all the test have been done as normal in these instances. The difference with this vaccine is the 'rushed' part. I think it's viable not to trust a process when you know it's been rushed, and unless we know all the nitty gritty and ins and outs, it's human nature to be more cautious than less. For some.

UserEleventyNine · 16/12/2020 13:30

The difference with this vaccine is the 'rushed' part.

Which parts do you think have been rushed?

The basic science has been around for a while, it was just adapted for this particular virus, as you might adapt a recipe.

The same amount of testing has been done as would normally be carried out. It has happened over a shorter period of time because this research was given priority, rather than having to compete for funding and resources with other research projects.

Approval has happened more quickly because the regulatory authority has been looking at each stage of the research as it has been completed, rather than waiting until the end and looking at everything then.

(I'm not a scientist, I don't have any specialist knowledge. All that information is easily found in articles on the BBC website.)

unless we know all the nitty gritty and ins and outs, it's human nature to be more cautious than less.

What information would you like to have that isn't available?

Ylvamoon · 16/12/2020 13:45

What information would you like to have that isn't available?

  • Will I need the vaccine annually?
  • Can I still get "long covid" - as it only gives you milder symptoms.
  • Can I still pass this virus on to vaccinated/ unvaccintad people?
  • Why isn't it give to pregnant women?

I'm glad I am at the bottom of the pile, by the time it's offered to me I will have answers

canigooutyet · 16/12/2020 14:06

@Ylvamoon

What information would you like to have that isn't available?
  • Will I need the vaccine annually?
  • Can I still get "long covid" - as it only gives you milder symptoms.
  • Can I still pass this virus on to vaccinated/ unvaccintad people?
  • Why isn't it give to pregnant women?

I'm glad I am at the bottom of the pile, by the time it's offered to me I will have answers

The first 3 are still a part of the unknown because the trials are around 5 months in.

The final one is because of whatever testing has gone on in animals since the 80's with this type of vaccine/delivering system (my brain is foggy today sorry). There's thousands of peer reviewed papers on this.

I'm not a medic, I just read an awful lot and are one of those weirdos who do research meds etc because of my own health. Not in a second guessing the medic people way lol.

Someone mentioned reactions and being sure later in life. I'm in my 40's, in the last 2 years I have developed a couple more allergies. It's not just me either. Again lots of peer reviewed papers about allergies and intolerances.

HOkieCOkie · 16/12/2020 14:24

Lol my favourite vaccine related sentence. “I plan on doing my own research.” Grin

I put my trust and faith in scientists, and leave the research and development to the professionals.

MaryLeeOnHigh · 16/12/2020 14:27

@Eckhart

So *@MaryLeeOnHigh* what you're saying is that a vaccine cannot have any long term, damaging side effects?
No. What I'm saying is that the full spectrum of other medications is not the right comparator.
Eckhart · 16/12/2020 14:38

No. What I'm saying is that the full spectrum of other medications is not the right comparator

Right, so you're talking about comparators. The general question was about the long term effects of the vaccine, so focusing on the fact that I used a poor comparator is just avoidance of the question.

Did you have an answer regarding the long term effects of the vaccine, and whether they could potentially be harmful?

Eckhart · 16/12/2020 14:48

Which parts do you think have been rushed

The basic science has been around for a while, it was just adapted for this particular virus, as you might adapt a recipe

I would imagine that the adapting part was rushed. I could adapt my apple pie recipe to include 1 million pips to each apple. It would kill people if they ate it (they wouldn't, but that's a different matter!) Saying that it's only an adaptation, like a recipe adaptation, minimises the fact that adaptations can be harmful.

I'm a layman too. We simply can't know all the details of what's been created, because we don't have the foundation of knowledge or access to 'the recipe'.

We are being asked to trust the government to give us something that will protect us against the virus. I can understand why some people feel wary.

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