To think London commute towns are no better than Edinburgh for raising a family?

[JenXG]

So basically DH and I are having a debate on whether to leave Edinburgh and move to a commute town outside London. (we have to stick with Edinburgh / London as working in financial sector but both of us would avoid London because of traffic/pollution/crowded streets).

The main reason for DH favouring those commute towns is that they seem to have loads of good schools for DS (4mo) to choose from compared to Edinburgh where there are only a few (or hardly any if his standard). He has high hope for DS. Also the A-level system is widely recognised across different countries (so potential for studying overseas) but the same cant be said for the Scotland system.

My worry is that we are giving up preferred lifestyle for a very small difference in schooling. I grew up in a big city and always need busy streets nearby. I understand some places such as Guildford will have its own town centre but there are still fewer things going on compared to Edinburgh. For example, there are a wide range of fine restuarants, several theatres & cinemas, pubs, etc in Edinburgh but living in Guildford we'd still have to go to London for a night out? I'd assume activities for young kids are more available in Edinburgh than in Guildford? E.g. Edinburgh has a zoo, lots of museums, and a coastline where you can do kayaking. Also Guildford is one of the busier towns as I understand. Some other commute towns are even quieter. So we'd highly likely end up travelling to London a lot which is not fun (I'm far more used to walking or driving a little bit to favourite places than hours of trains/tubes).

What do people think? I haven't been to many places in the southern area. Maybe I have misunderstood what life would be like there? Would you relocate if you were us?

*grandson

This thread is nuts. I'm loving the accusations that Scots are parochial and insular. You'd be hard pushed to find any part of the 'New World' that isn't named after a place/person of Scottish origin. Why do you think that might be?

Plus, Scotland has always had an issue with too may with young people, especially graduates leaving.

I just can’t comprehend your dh reason for moving is very we schooling so that your dc have access to international studying
He seriously thinks Scottish students don’t study overseas?
This might just be the biggest pile of shite that I’ve heard heard week.

HAHAHAHAHAHA leave Edinburgh?? What foolishness.

I've lived in Edinburgh, London, Guildford and another commuter town unnecessary to mention.
Edinburgh is a different league in terms of quality of life!
Also i studied and have lots of Friends who some serious academic credentials (Harvard and Princeton for instance if that matters) and all think Edinburgh is THE place to be.
Making a probably ludicrous decision based on an imaginary (possibly pie in the sky) future for a 4month old is making your DH seem awful.
Show him this thread.

And now I have to move back to Edinburgh. Damn.

I have been reading up about Scottish state schools- suffice to say it's well known that the situation isn't good. I wonder, is it that great education wise to be in a city where the default option for middle class parents who can afford it is private school? Even if the Destination isn't Oxbridge but generally?

In London, that is most certainly not the case. London state schools are known for good results and even parents who can afford it think hard before going the private route. This means that London private schools have more an incentive to be better than the state alternative as for an extra £20k per annum, it is not worth it if it's only marginally better. Like with healthcare and other public services, a decent state option leads to higher standards in the private sector..

If you want the insurance of good state schools then I would suggest Hampshire. Some of its non-selective comprehensives do better (going by league tables) than selective grammar schools in Kent. And it has good sixth form colleges for A levels. The primary schools are decent too.

Great state schools is why Winchester is always popular on “where should I move to” threads. Housing is expensive though.

I live in London but Edinburgh is a lovely city with less traffic and commuting. The education in state and private is very good. Friends sent their sons to Stewart’s Melville. I don’t think you can get better than that.

@hopingforonlychild

I have been reading up about Scottish state schools- suffice to say it's well known that the situation isn't good. I wonder, is it that great education wise to be in a city where the default option for middle class parents who can afford it is private school? Even if the Destination isn't Oxbridge but generally?

In London, that is most certainly not the case. London state schools are known for good results and even parents who can afford it think hard before going the private route. This means that London private schools have more an incentive to be better than the state alternative as for an extra £20k per annum, it is not worth it if it's only marginally better. Like with healthcare and other public services, a decent state option leads to higher standards in the private sector..

What have you been reading and where, I'm intrigued. There's lots of great stuff happened in state schools that have had a huge impact on all kids not just the middle class ones.

Anecdotally, it is believed the reason that so many middle class kids go to private schools in Edinburgh is because of who the parents are. Across Scotland it is not the culture to send kids to private school like it is in England. But, in Edinburgh over 14% of the population are English and most are middle class. What you see in Edinburgh is not represented anywhere else in Scotland, it's an anomaly.

@hopingforonlychild

I have been reading up about Scottish state schools- suffice to say it's well known that the situation isn't good. I wonder, is it that great education wise to be in a city where the default option for middle class parents who can afford it is private school? Even if the Destination isn't Oxbridge but generally?

In London, that is most certainly not the case. London state schools are known for good results and even parents who can afford it think hard before going the private route. This means that London private schools have more an incentive to be better than the state alternative as for an extra £20k per annum, it is not worth it if it's only marginally better. Like with healthcare and other public services, a decent state option leads to higher standards in the private sector..

Edinburgh parents aren't sending their children to private schools because the state schools are bad. The state schools here are very good. Would they be improved by having more well-supported middle class children attending - well yes, but that doesn't mean that the state schools are in some sort of ideological crisis.

Reasons I have heard for sending children to private schools include:

• Because DC is gifted at maths and isn't being pushed (utter bs, this was a perfectly normal child with perfectly normal abilities)
• I saw the local kids wearing really short skirts and didn't want my daughters to turn out like one of those kids (guess what, they did)
• I have girls and want them to do sport (actually have some sympathy with this, the difference in girls' sports take-up at single sex schools v mixed is striking, but that's because they're single sex rather than private)
• I want my DS to go to Oxbridge (on this very thread and in other places)
• I don't want my DCs mixing with the kids on the estate
• guaranteed wrap-around care (again, I have some sympathy with this as most primary school after-school clubs are rammed)
• I don't want my kid being held back by disabled kids (!)

No-one actually comes out and says 'because I am a Watsons boy and I got my job in banking from another Watsons boy, and next week I'm recruiting another Watsons boy'. I would respect them a lot more if they did, actually.

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett
Yes, there are plenty of families who have been at these schools for generations! I.e. the teacher was taught by your classmate's dad and so on. So Edinburgh is anomalous but it is not necessarily about people arriving from elsewhere

I have been reading up about Scottish state schools- suffice to say it's well known that the situation isn't good.

What is it you believe is happening at Scottish state schools? Everyone I know here with school-age children has them at state schools, and it’s not ‘well known that the situation isn’t good’.

I'm Edinburgh based. Originally from Northern Ireland, and studied in London. I love Edinburgh. Very happy here. I have been here for over twenty years, and wouldn't live anywhere else in the world. All the benefits of a capital city,choice of entertainment, restaurants, shops, job opportunities. But on a smaller scale. Only twenty minutes drive to the countryside on the beach. Access to airports, good public transport, local
Skiing/accessible highlands. You can walk down Princess Street and bump into several people you know.
On the subject of schools, I might have a bit of an insight into this as currently have children in both the private and state sector. ( state primary, private secondary)
I genuinely have been impressed with my children's state primary. It is small, there's not much funding for extra curricular stuff, the playground and the classrooms are small. If a child falls behind there's not much in the way of resources to help turn that around unfortunately. But the teachers are fantastic, so hard working and inventive. I was blown away by their support during lockdown. The parents and school community are second to none, and I would recommend the experience we had with our children at the primary to anyone.
Regarding the private school. As a previous poster mentioned, paraphrasing, no one admits it's to do with making contacts and giving jobs to fellow watsonians or equivalent.
Actually, no. That was never in my thinking. And as explained above, I'm not from Edinburgh so that has genuinely never crossed my mind.
I chose an Edinburgh private school for the smaller class numbers, the bigger classrooms and playgrounds and the extra curricular stuff, the extra resources thrown at support for learning and the greater variety of sport. I didn't think the private school coped as well as the state during lockdown.

In conclusion, if I had a choice, it would be Edinburgh every time. I live heading up the Royal mile and discovering a hidden close Id never spotted before. There is a genuine surprise around every corner. I live that I can travel from one end of the city to the other in about twenty minutes. I love the summer festivals, especially the buzz of the Fringe. I love that we have world class wet end shows and Michelin starred restaurants. I love that we have so many parks and green spaces and that you can walk the water of Leith, literally walk through the city centre and never ever see a single car

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/12/snp-can-t-disguise-scotland-s-failing-education-system

@GoldenOmber it may actually be English media which doesn't usually portray Scotland positively. Well that does put my heart at rest. I live in zone 3 London and am looking at Edinburgh as an alternative to the usual home counties move as I am a city girl and don't want to live in a very white town..But I need good state schools as insurance and in London I have that.

I'm over invested in this thread and am trying to limit my posting.

I agree with @Edina2020 Edinburgh has always had a private / fee paying school culture. It hasn't changed recently due to demographic changes. It has always been there. My mother (born 1949) was always very self-conscious that she wasn't privately educated.

Think back to Prime of Miss Jean Brodie - it is set in James Gillespie's School for Girls.. which was a fee-paying state school.

@hopingforonlychild

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/12/snp-can-t-disguise-scotland-s-failing-education-system

@GoldenOmber it may actually be English media which doesn't usually portray Scotland positively. Well that does put my heart at rest. I live in zone 3 London and am looking at Edinburgh as an alternative to the usual home counties move as I am a city girl and don't want to live in a very white town..But I need good state schools as insurance and in London I have that.

There’s a whole long-standing thing between Scottish and English education - and how they compare, so Scotland now being behind England was a big deal to some parts of the media and some politicians... but realistically there’s never been that much between how they rank, it’s just a stick to beat each other with.

The SNP haven’t been great with education, but that’s all surrounded by a lot of hyperbole, yep they do have a not great record on education, yep it should be doing better than it is... but equally England should also be doing better, it’s just they have different problems - but they’re also much of a muchness overall.

Re private education in Edinburgh being a long-standing thing, well yes... that’s why there’s old jokes about they ask which school you went to in Glasgow to work out if you’re Protestant and catholic and in Edinburgh they ask to work out how rich you are.

Edinburgh is a city of only half a million people, so you can’t really compare it to London, Paris, New York, etc. I spent time in Edinburgh and I wouldn’t say it’s particularly multi-cultural or diverse. It can be a fun city, yes, but it’s also a harsh, grey place to live and the architecture is austere (the buildings definitely needed the soot cleaning off them when I was there). The wind is something else if you’re not used to it and the summer is about two weeks long. I think you have to be quite tough to enjoy life up there and you can see that etched in peoples faces, but then I’m sure someone living in the South of France would say the same about London. It’s all relative.

One place I could not cope with however, is Aberdeen...

There are some really odd opinions on this thread. Edinburgh harsh and grey? Ok, it's chillier than the south, but it is indisputably one of the most beautiful cities in the UK.

And you need to be tough to live here, and you can see this in people's faces? Not even sure what is meant by this. Parts of the UK are tough to live in, because of grinding poverty and poor infrastructure, but you can't apply this as a whole to Edinburgh.

The pressure on your baby aside (which, well can't really be put aside...)

I wouldn't leave Edinburgh for a commuter belt (particularly Surrey). Much much more on offer where you are, and parts of Surrey are very much bedroom communities with everyone commuting in etc. House prices are v high too. And while Surrey has good schools at one point 25% of kids there were privately educated.

I'd 100% stick with Edinburgh and go private if need be. But I also think it's important to put your husband's "high hopes" in check. Better a well rounded, mentally well child who goes to a standard Uni than a completely crippled by anxiety child who felt he couldn't live up to his father's hopes/dreams (the latter is common in Surrey - I worked there in youth mental health, it was v problematic in the wealthy areas!).

I agree, Scotland can be dreich but a sunny day in Edinburgh, or a crisp autumn day is beyond compare. I always say to people planning to visit Scotland that we can’t guarantee nice weather but if they are lucky enough to get it, it is one of the most beautiful places in the world. (Though I do agree that the bit between Glasgow and Edin is a bit, erm, uninspiring..)
Where I come from, about 45 minutes further north, we have a castle that also sits up on an extinct volcano like Edinburgh castle, and the town is also surrounded by hills on 3 sides, purple and gold in the summer and autumn and snowy in winter. After most of my life in flat bits of England I still miss not having a castle and hills on the horizon. So I must admit I laughed when I saw you say this OP:

Yes Edinburgh is beautiful, cultural and has a volcano. But why would I want a volcano at my doorstep when I have a 4mo to look after.

The castle is part of the view, your surroundings, and it is there as you push your buggy round the streets, maybe have a picnic with your toddler in Prices Street Gardens, put your 4 year-old on your shoulders to watch the fireworks. You can appreciate it and Arthur’s Seat from afar with a baby in tow. Yes, things like the arts and nightlife become largely irrelevant when you have a child, but kids don’t stop you enjoying nice surroundings, and nice surroundings can lift the spirits if the drudgery of parenting is getting you down.

Yes Edinburgh is beautiful, cultural and has a volcano. But why would I want a volcano at my doorstep when I have a 4mo to look after.

I think the trick with any issue in Scotland is this:

Don’t ever believe the SNP, they spin so much their heids are birling.
But...
Don’t ever believe the SNP hate-frothers either. They do the same, just in the opposite direction. And for some reason MN is a magnet for them 🤪

This thread really is something else. It highlights yet again that money can buy a very good education and opportunities in life and the rest of us mere mortals will just have to stick with our local comp, as unaspiratuonal as it is. Fettes, St Andrew's and Edinburgh Uni are not good enough and the Scots are untravelled and uncouth. Dour perhaps but not uncultured.

One of my first lessons as a parent was that my child was/is not a blank bit of paper that I could teach and mold into the best version of me but that she is a person with her own likes, wants and desires completely independent from me. OP, I think you and your husband need to realise that.

Architecture austere? That’s really not the case.it’s breathtaking and vibrant. Both the old & new town are superlative
Agree, It is not particularly multicultural except during festival.
And yes it get icy cold

You have to be quite tough to enjoy life up there and you can see that etched in peoples faces err it’s Edinburgh not Helmand province. Genteel Edinburgh where everyone is obsessed by the cost and overall fuckery of the trams. quite tough yes I’ve heard tutting in the bus and I observed quite a stramash in morningside when they’d no gails olive sourdough

@ludothedog it's the system in the whole of the UK unfortunately. You can't really stop people from using their money to get the best and if they have more money, their concept of good looks different. My dad refused to pay for university that wasn't RG, thankfully I got into RG and didn't need to study locally. I know women who would only carry designer handbags, that's their call too.

But what we can do as ordinary people is not to moan about rich people being ambitious but elect politicians who would prioritise local comps so that the people paying £30k per year are the silly ones as the local comp has better results. Far fetched dream I know, but I see no point in berating people with money online for wanting to get the best for their money. I don't go to the chanel store on Oxford street and tell women they should be donating their money to charity and a £5000 bag is inane.