To think London commute towns are no better than Edinburgh for raising a family?

[JenXG]

So basically DH and I are having a debate on whether to leave Edinburgh and move to a commute town outside London. (we have to stick with Edinburgh / London as working in financial sector but both of us would avoid London because of traffic/pollution/crowded streets).

The main reason for DH favouring those commute towns is that they seem to have loads of good schools for DS (4mo) to choose from compared to Edinburgh where there are only a few (or hardly any if his standard). He has high hope for DS. Also the A-level system is widely recognised across different countries (so potential for studying overseas) but the same cant be said for the Scotland system.

My worry is that we are giving up preferred lifestyle for a very small difference in schooling. I grew up in a big city and always need busy streets nearby. I understand some places such as Guildford will have its own town centre but there are still fewer things going on compared to Edinburgh. For example, there are a wide range of fine restuarants, several theatres & cinemas, pubs, etc in Edinburgh but living in Guildford we'd still have to go to London for a night out? I'd assume activities for young kids are more available in Edinburgh than in Guildford? E.g. Edinburgh has a zoo, lots of museums, and a coastline where you can do kayaking. Also Guildford is one of the busier towns as I understand. Some other commute towns are even quieter. So we'd highly likely end up travelling to London a lot which is not fun (I'm far more used to walking or driving a little bit to favourite places than hours of trains/tubes).

What do people think? I haven't been to many places in the southern area. Maybe I have misunderstood what life would be like there? Would you relocate if you were us?

If you're not planning on staying until your child's teenage years you'd be best moving now. I know childhood friendships are clearly of no importance to you or your DH but they're usually very important to children and personally I think its cruel to let children build up friendships over years and then move them far away where they know no-one, especially when they're on the brink of teenage hood.
Kent is imo boresville compared to Edinburgh though.

@JenXG you have a beautiful 4 month baby. You cannot possibly realistically plan relocations for school. He can’t hold his head up unsupported never mind give you directions what school will suit him
So far you’re considering
Ireland
England
No longer enamoured with Scotland

All three countries culturally different each with their respective merits. But hell I’d not chose where to live on the basis of school results

It’s hard to say really OP, without knowing your housing budget.

If you don’t want full on suburbia, but want a more rural feel and more space, could I suggest somewhere the other side of Richmond - eg. Petersham or Hampton or anywhere along that meander of the river? It’s fantastic for families. Very green. Obviously it’s not cheap by national standards, but your money will buy you more space over that way than say, in Barnes or Chelsea.

There is a boys school in Hampton (called Hampton, funnily enough) and they achieve about 95% A-A* at GCSE. St. Paul’s used to be the aspirational school that everyone knows about, but these days, not so much, as many schools achieve very similar results. There is also Kings Wimbledon, for instance.

We have friends who live in Edinburgh with kids at Fettes. It looks very grand, but it’s very long days (obviously due to the boarding style) and the results are what would be considered low-average in terms London of London independents. They are very frustrated with it actually and moving.

But the London schools are very competitive and don’t suit everyone, obviously. At 4 months, you have no idea if your DS will be academic or not. Or have a SLD such as dyslexia.

The problem in the independent sector in London is that the top maybe 2-5% will get into the schools that regularly feature in the top 10 in the league tables. But then, the schools that should be catering for the children of more average to high ability, are snapping at the heels of the top schools - raising their entrance requirements to snap up the ones who don’t quite get in to the very top schools. And so it goes on. So the kids have to sit about 5 schools, but even the “back up options” are schools that get about 75% A-A* at GCSE (which is the same as a school that would be considered aspirational elsewhere eg Fettes).

The other thing I have seen with friends that have moved out Berkshire way for more space (eg Henley and places like that) - well, that area is boarding school central and so, not surprisingly, all the preps are geared to 13+ and feed the boarding schools west of London - eg. Wellington, Eton etc etc. These are less competitive than the London Day Schools though, simply because the market for boarding is smaller.

Kent has Tonbridge School which is easier to get into because it’s boarding (but very good results).

But there are few “softer” schools in terms of entry requirements in SW London into Surrey area, such as Reeds or Epsom College, for example. The results will be similar to Fettes (did you say you were planning on Fettes - sorry if not)!

Personally, I would rather have a slightly smaller house in an area where there’s more going on - but everyone is different!

@SabrinaThwaite

The Spectrum pool is 25m and 8 lanes.

University of Surrey pool is 50m and 8 lanes too (so technically not Olympic size - but then neither is the Commie).

But Guildford does have a 50m lido.

Sevenoaks is nice but very very expensive because of only being 25 minutes outside London. DH's nephew and his wife live there.

Tunbridge Wells is also nice and slightly less expensive - also has grammar schools so you don't have to worry about expensive private school fees assuming genius 4 month old is clever enough to get in. I like the countryside in Kent more than Surrey, it's prettier and there are some lovely villages. I'd rather live in T Wells than Guildford.

Meant to say thank you for the clarification about swimming pools - I had forgotten about the Lido :)

There’s nothing wrong with highers - they’re universally recognised 🙄

OP Winchester is nice and I definitely prefer it to Guildford, except that the shops are better in Guildford. Housing is expensive but less than Guildford, and you are closer to the sea if that's your thing, or you think it might become your thing.

You assume your husband will get leadership roles - he might not. Would you be happy to stay in Edinburgh if he stayed at his current level? You don't say if you are working and whether your career development also plays a role.

Why are you even spending energy on considering higher education in relation to a 4 month old baby?!

You have absolute no idea where your kids talents and interests will lie. They may thrive on leaving school and going straight into an apprenticeship, becoming a chef, joining the army.... or whatever. The possibilities are endless! I honestly don’t understand why you have such narrow hopes and expectations for you child that rule so much out.

For what it’s worth I studied at Edinburgh uni and loved the city, and can imagine it being a great place to grow up.

Cambridge could suit you really well as it's a good place for education.

Also OP, I don’t know if you’re planning on any more children in the future, but if so this area has the many of best results-wise at least) girls schools in the UK - eg. St Paul’s Girls, Godolphin and Latymer, LEH, Latymer Upper (co-ed), Wimbledon High, Putney High, Francis Holland Sloane Square, etc etc. There loads of options for girls. There is also Tiffin Girls in Kingston which is a state grammar but no catchment area (unlike the actual Kingston Grammar which is an independent co-ed and also very good).

And yes, Cambridge also has great schools like the Perse.

@CheetasOnFajitas

So you’re back OP. Not a word of acknowledgement or thanks for several pages of advice and just asking more questions. Think you have forgotten your manners...

Oh sorry to make you feel that way. I do thank all those who replied and provided lots of helpful information. And they indeed made us re-think our situation and choices. I was trying to catch up with the replies and reply as many as possible... and the sevenoaks one happened to be the first one i read that was addressed to me (lots of other replies have gone off the topic and i didn't feel i could contribute to their discussions).

What possessed people as insanely-ambitious as you and your husband to move to Scotland in the first place? Yes, Edinburgh has a healthy financial services sector, but it’s a backwater compared to the City of London.

And now you are swallowing nonsense that certain people with an agenda are feeding you about Scots being parochial and lacking curiosity about the world! This Scot has only recently returned from 6 years working in Asia (and Latin America before that, and I am still in London). Contemporaries from my bog standard state high school class of about 60 pupils live in: Canada, New Zealand, Dubai, France, Australia, China, Singapore, various English cities, Brazil, the Netherlands and Namibia.

The evidence of Scots shaping the economy of Asia is everywhere- surely you’ve heard of Jardine Matheson? Why do you think the Hong Kong Police have a pipe band? I have met fellow Scots everywhere in the world that I have lived, worked and travelled.

Anyone with more than a cursory interest in Scottish history and culture would know that our world view is way out of proportion to our size and geographical location. I have met a lot more people from Kent, Essex and Surrey who have palpitations at the thought of travelling further than the Costa del Sol.

@CheetasOnFajitas

What possessed people as insanely-ambitious as you and your husband to move to Scotland in the first place? Yes, Edinburgh has a healthy financial services sector, but it’s a backwater compared to the City of London.

And now you are swallowing nonsense that certain people with an agenda are feeding you about Scots being parochial and lacking curiosity about the world! This Scot has only recently returned from 6 years working in Asia (and Latin America before that, and I am still in London). Contemporaries from my bog standard state high school class of about 60 pupils live in: Canada, New Zealand, Dubai, France, Australia, China, Singapore, various English cities, Brazil, the Netherlands and Namibia.

The evidence of Scots shaping the economy of Asia is everywhere- surely you’ve heard of Jardine Matheson? Why do you think the Hong Kong Police have a pipe band? I have met fellow Scots everywhere in the world that I have lived, worked and travelled.

Anyone with more than a cursory interest in Scottish history and culture would know that our world view is way out of proportion to our size and geographical location. I have met a lot more people from Kent, Essex and Surrey who have palpitations at the thought of travelling further than the Costa del Sol.

Hurrah. Well said.

Two easy colutions for you OP
Buy a copy of The Good Schools Guide and talk to them about schools.

Take some holiday and spend it driving around Cambridgeshire, Buckinghamshire, Herts, Kent and Surrey.

Bonkers asking on the web when you have not even been to half the places you mention.

@PortraitOfAWoman I am Chinese too (ethnically) and I have yet to meet a Chinese young person with professional parents who didn't go to university. Barring disability/extreme family drama. . This includes people from hk/Taiwan/China/Singapore/UK. I am sure it happens but it's rare. It's probably the cultural aspect but the childraising is different. There is no reason to expect OP's child wouldn't go to a top uni, all signs point to that. 25% of Chinese children in UK get straight As as it is. And vast majority of Chinese children in UK are from far modest backgrounds.

'Barring disability' is quite a sweeping statement there.

[quote hopingforonlychild]@PortraitOfAWoman I am Chinese too (ethnically) and I have yet to meet a Chinese young person with professional parents who didn't go to university. Barring disability/extreme family drama. . This includes people from hk/Taiwan/China/Singapore/UK. I am sure it happens but it's rare. It's probably the cultural aspect but the childraising is different. There is no reason to expect OP's child wouldn't go to a top uni, all signs point to that. 25% of Chinese children in UK get straight As as it is. And vast majority of Chinese children in UK are from far modest backgrounds.[/quote]
Just because you have not met any, doesn't mean they aren't out there.

There is no reason to expect OP's child wouldn't go to a top uni, all signs point to that

. There a many reasons, intelligence being one of them. You can't 'buy' a place at a good uni; you earn it.

@JenXG i am confused by what you meanwhen you day Edinburgh private schools are more expensive when the London bog standard private schools are at least £20k when the likes of George Watson and George heriot are 13k. And fettes is the same cost as st Paul's.

I would also consider the Chinese population of the places you are suggesting. Some areas of the SE are less accepting of minorities than cities. It's 1 reason why I stayed in london- I also had private schools in mind but what was also important was the existence of at least a sizeable Chinese community in the area. I am in North london- east Finchley. School buses to Habs, St Pauls. Near to Hampstead and Highgate where hall school and Highgate are. Good state schools as a backup. The way I see it, London/SE house prices are so high that I might as well get a good catchment in the deal as insurance. Private schools are exam based anyway so as long as it's a reasonable distance, you don't need to live next to the school.

What would worry me about seven oaks is that the only game in town is the private school. In London you have more options.

@PortraitOfAWoman tell that to Gaddafi's son and LSE! But yes I was an international student and there were a lot of hush hush rumours at that time about the donations you could make to Oxford if you really wanted a place.

And of course 8 schools overwhelmingly feed to Oxbridge If Boris had gone to a state school, he would never have made it into Oxbridge.

[quote hopingforonlychild]@PortraitOfAWoman tell that to Gaddafi's son and LSE! But yes I was an international student and there were a lot of hush hush rumours at that time about the donations you could make to Oxford if you really wanted a place.

And of course 8 schools overwhelmingly feed to Oxbridge If Boris had gone to a state school, he would never have made it into Oxbridge.[/quote]
That's all many , many years ago.

If you're looking at it from the point of view of schools then the Scottish system is just as good if not better than the English system. If you're thinking of going private you will get what you pay for I think in either area. If you're not - you'll get the same problem in London commuter towns that you get in Edinburgh - lots of relatively wealthy parents send their children private. This results in what's known as 'bottom heavy' schools much like the ones your husband probably wants to avoid in Edinburgh. The best schools in Scotland in terms of results are in the Glasgow commuter belt, especially East Dunbartonshire, though I'm not sure where that leaves you in terms of Finance jobs. TBH your children should do well in any school if you, the parents, give them enough attention at home both pre 5 and as they move through the grades. Study upon study shows that the greatest factor in childrens' educational achievement is the quality of the parenting they receive. Parents are the ones who really teach, teachers, school - they have 30 at a time and have no time to teach. Hope this helps.

Just a small note on London v. Guildford schools - GHS and RGS are both always in the top ten, GHS generally in the top three, so above those highly competitive London schools.

@JenXG the other thing you should think about is child care.

The hook for most of the Edinburgh private schools is good wrap around childcare. Loads of my friends who wouldn't otherwise pay for school because they live in a good catchment area do so to make the childcare situation easier. Drop at 08:00 pick up at 17:00. All good.

Down here (london) my experience is that not that many of the London private schools (can't comment on the commuter belt as no-one I know lives there) do good wrap around. Loads of people have ended up with after school nannies as a result. Which is additional cost.

And do look at housing costs.

There is a bloody good reason that 4 of my close friends work in London and live in Edinburgh ... housing costs!

@myla1

It’s hard to say really OP, without knowing your housing budget.

If you don’t want full on suburbia, but want a more rural feel and more space, could I suggest somewhere the other side of Richmond - eg. Petersham or Hampton or anywhere along that meander of the river? It’s fantastic for families. Very green. Obviously it’s not cheap by national standards, but your money will buy you more space over that way than say, in Barnes or Chelsea.

There is a boys school in Hampton (called Hampton, funnily enough) and they achieve about 95% A-A* at GCSE. St. Paul’s used to be the aspirational school that everyone knows about, but these days, not so much, as many schools achieve very similar results. There is also Kings Wimbledon, for instance.

We have friends who live in Edinburgh with kids at Fettes. It looks very grand, but it’s very long days (obviously due to the boarding style) and the results are what would be considered low-average in terms London of London independents. They are very frustrated with it actually and moving.

But the London schools are very competitive and don’t suit everyone, obviously. At 4 months, you have no idea if your DS will be academic or not. Or have a SLD such as dyslexia.

The problem in the independent sector in London is that the top maybe 2-5% will get into the schools that regularly feature in the top 10 in the league tables. But then, the schools that should be catering for the children of more average to high ability, are snapping at the heels of the top schools - raising their entrance requirements to snap up the ones who don’t quite get in to the very top schools. And so it goes on. So the kids have to sit about 5 schools, but even the “back up options” are schools that get about 75% A-A* at GCSE (which is the same as a school that would be considered aspirational elsewhere eg Fettes).

The other thing I have seen with friends that have moved out Berkshire way for more space (eg Henley and places like that) - well, that area is boarding school central and so, not surprisingly, all the preps are geared to 13+ and feed the boarding schools west of London - eg. Wellington, Eton etc etc. These are less competitive than the London Day Schools though, simply because the market for boarding is smaller.

Kent has Tonbridge School which is easier to get into because it’s boarding (but very good results).

But there are few “softer” schools in terms of entry requirements in SW London into Surrey area, such as Reeds or Epsom College, for example. The results will be similar to Fettes (did you say you were planning on Fettes - sorry if not)!

Personally, I would rather have a slightly smaller house in an area where there’s more going on - but everyone is different!

Hi Thanks! Very insightful information. Will definitely look at the areas you mentioned. We were trying to avoid London. The level of competitiveness was one reason (we were looking for a good school for DS but not wanting him to go to a hot house if you see what i mean...). But if no other more suitable places we might end up with moving to London and hoping to find a not so pushy school...don't know...and there's another post earlier mentioning the disruption to DS's friendship if we move half way his teen years. Haven't thought about that but it's very valid. So London might be the ultimate answer.

We moved to a 5bed detached in the middle of nowhere a few years ago and it has been proved not suitable for us. I'd prefer a smaller house with lots going on too!