AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

@Daleksatemyshed Thanks. Although on further reflection, while the angriest men are definately the ones with no sex life, I dont think they do just use women for sex - they also rely on women for emotional support, physical care, ego boosting, transference of emotional pain etc etc. But that stuff tends to go almost unnoticed because its so taken for granted. If you remove female precence completely thats when things really start to fall apart (and they turn on each other. There is a reason male rape is so prevelant in prisons etc, its because there are no women to rape).

Agree OP. It is shit. And it's getting worse. I agree there are lovely men, but the problem is, like LisaLee says, even the men who seem lovely or do a "Mr Feminist" surface act, are almost always misogynists underneath, even if it's not expressed with violence or openly sexist opinions, even if they don't see it themselves. I see it now with so many of them.

So many men have a deep need to be better than women, and if they are not, the anger emerges. I see this in the trans movement as well, though there are also many other aspects to it. Men who want to be better than women, even at being women, the final frontier.

And feeling like this, knowing what it is to be a woman or girl, knowing why that matters, is part of why we need the right to our own spaces, not just to get changed, do sports or serve prison sentences (although we bloody do) but to talk and share and understand each other.

I do have a son and I discuss these things with him as sensitively as possible, and I also try to talk to both him and my DD about the issues as they affect everyone - while trying to avoid wanging on about feminism so much that they stop listening.

My DS is kind and gentle, but I do see a difference in awareness of others' needs and level of entitlement between him and DD, despite all my best efforts. The messages that women have less value are everywhere.

Agree with all of this. The thing I’m struggling with now is that sticking with family life/commitment is optional for men. Xh just had enough and walked away. I think there should be a contract on the birth of each child. I wouldn’t have had dc if I’d known I’d be a single mum - it was my worst fear due to my mums’s experience, and he knew it.

We need to support single mums much better (it’s so easy for absent dads not to pay), and I’d warn any woman not to have dc unless they’d be ok bringing them up alone, or alternatively only seeing them 50% of the time (which can hurt like hell), and having no control over what happens to them the other 50%.

Everyone can agree that attacks on women, unfair carer progression and the serious stuff is awful.

But many women will not know that their nice mate or brother or DH is part of the issue. It is the lower level stuff that’s acceptable in male circles. Someone mentioned this upthread and how if caught out say it was just a joke the usual it’s just banter crap. The way they talk about women is rarely overheard because guess what we are there so the alleged nice ones temper their language.

I game on console and play a huge online MMO game to play it requires the use of a headset for high level activity. Women game but are reluctant to go on mic. I belong to a few women only gaming forums and the boards are posted on every day about harassment in game. In five years of playing it I have bumped in to maybe a dozen women but hundreds of men. They talk about mainly the game but often personal stuff. I left a group recently due to their obsession and continued leering over a woman streamer plus other sexist rubbish about women and housework. They were not like this when I first knew them but over time they sort of forgot I was a woman as I became part of the group and that’s when they started to slip up because they forgot to temper their language.

I worked in higher education for 25 years, I have acute hearing skills really over switched on. Both departments I worked in as a librarian were different subjects. I overheard plenty of sexist low level stuff due to my acute hearing over the years, clever though as not quite enough to report. This lot were allegedly intellectuals but some were still sexist.

I am lucky enough to have wonderful male relations, partner, friends.

I am still bloody sick of the violence and entitlement of men.

YANBU.

Read a book called the Power by Naomi. alderman. Overnight by a quirk of nature young women develop an electrical charge they can use to kill men. It starts in Eastern Europe the young women being abused in the sex industry start killing their abusers and it spreads from there. The power balance reverses within a few days.

This book is incredible, all women should read it.....It is a great fictional example of what would happen once men have to live with the fear women do, of being hurt by the opposite sex.

On another note, the only thing l think will gradually help with the inherent sexism everywhere is for women to find the courage to call out every abusive/sexist/comment...
I would never have done that as a younger woman, but now l am more ...err.. mature, l don't care about making a scene or feeling embarrassed.
And for DV, to stop making excuses for nasty men, call them out publically (if safe to do so) go to the police, tell the world, their bosses and friends.
If the saying about men fearing humiliation is true, then that needs to be the way to make them stop and think about their behavior and comments.

@Calmandmeasured1

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women). It sounds rather OTT to me to describe that sort of conversation as "horrific".

In my experience most men are not as you describe them OP. Yes, I've heard colleagues bantering over the years and they make it clear it is a joke.

In relation to the sex attacks on your running route, could it be one serial sex attacker rather than many attackers?

Really?

A conversation like that at my workplace would lead to those men being told in no uncertain terms that sexist "banter" is not acceptable in the workplace and that if they had to be reminded of the fact, that reminder would be in the form of a verbal warning.

The "banter" defence cuts no ice with me. If even one person in the group is not happy, or not participating, in "banter", then it's bullying, or harrassment, or both. And if colleagues can't have a laugh without putting other colleagues down, then they need to take a good look at themselves.

@Dragongirl10 " now l am more ...err.. mature, l don't care about making a scene or feeling embarrassed." And men know this, this is why the "Karen" meme and "can I speak to manager haircut" became much more popular than any of the other valid points being made by actual BLM campaigners rather than brocialists.

Of course it's not all men but I struggle because I agree with OP so much. The problem is that the "really bad" men are prolific - behaving this way with pretty much every single woman they meet. While the bulk of the "good" men still aren't really willing to do the hard work of thinking hard about their own behaviour and thinking. So they might not proactively behave badly, but they don't even notice the internalised misogyny, don't challenge other men and probably don't even realise the way they treat women differently at times. DH tries so hard but it's been hard for him as he learns to recognise his own biases. And when he's challenged men, it hasn't gone well for him.

DD is 5. In her class, there's a boy who touches her. It's not entirely clear if the teacher knows or what DD has told the teacher or how often it happens or whatever so I'm not yet at a point at which I'm going to go nuclear on the school. But I have been role playing with DD what to do if and when it happens again. But it's so hard because we'll practice and she'll start with asking him not to touch her, and then when he continues, her answer is to tell the teacher. And I keep telling her that no, she doesn't have to do that. I tell her to shout or say loudly, "Stop touching me. I don't like it." and then, if the teacher asks her, to say that she asked him to stop but he didn't. But the rule that she must be kind to the other children and not shout etc is so ingrained that she is struggling to understand that when he's not being kind to her she has the right to make her unhappiness clear. She thinks she'll get into trouble if she shouts at him. I've assured her that she won't and if her teacher does get cross, she can tell me and I will come and speak with her teacher.

DS is 9. One of girls' mums told me that her DD loves DS because he always tells the other boys to leave her and her friends alone when they are being teased/harassed. I am, of course, super proud of him. But I wish that he didn't need to do this.

YANBU.

But I've also had it with the women and mothers who enable lechery and misogynistic behaviour by trading on their youth and beauty, marrying purely for money and status, appearing on TV game shows wearing next to nothing, feeding their daughters medieval crap about societal roles, duty and obligation. I know far too many such women, they are fucking poison.

My son will not be a misogynistic arsehole like his father.

YADNBU - I'm amazed that 14% of voters think you are.

DH and I were watching the programmes on BBC 4 last night about the Yorkshire ripper and even he was really shocked by how women were treated during that time, especially the chanting by football fans. I'm not sure that underneath the surface much has changed, men are just more nervous about being hauled up in front of a disciplinary tribunal if they're too obviously sexist. When there are no witnesses around or no consequences for their behaviour a lot of men don't bother hiding their contempt for women.

I feel so angry that my DD aged 7 is already dealing with this crap, just last week had a boy chasing her around the playground trying to pull her trousers down to see her pants! Couldn't get her trousers so instead pulled her coat off and threw it across the playground! Fortunately the school were very good and quick to deal with it. Have had a few chats with her about this sort of stuff in a way she can process it, just wish I didn't have to have these chats at all. Why can't it be that boy's parents chatting with him about how his behaviour is totally unacceptable! They clearly haven't as apparently he just moves on to another girl. Though there are a lot of boys in the school who are very respectful, protective and kind to all the girls so I've heard, maybe there's hope.

@Alys20

YANBU.

But I've also had it with the women and mothers who enable lechery and misogynistic behaviour by trading on their youth and beauty, marrying purely for money and status, appearing on TV game shows wearing next to nothing, feeding their daughters medieval crap about societal roles, duty and obligation. I know far too many such women, they are fucking poison.

My son will not be a misogynistic arsehole like his father.

As I said, I hate extremists views, and how vile and abusive some women can be.

You couldn't have illustrated my point better.

I also have a lovely DP, though I don’t really feel like he “gets” this. When I get angry about this kind of thing he just gets defensive and says “well, it’s not all men”. And whilst he is right this attitude really annoys me.

To me OP, this is the crux of the issue; the question being, 'why does male contempt and violence towards women persist as a societal norm?'.

Answer: Because the people in a position to challenge it, to make it socially unacceptable, choose not to do so. They actively choose not to do so.

One of the main reasons for this is the thinking your DP has demonstrated here, which is the classic, the archetypal example of male privilege.

That is, he literally thinks that everything is about him. That he is at the centre of everything. That if he doesn't do a thing or think a thing, that thing is unimportant or not even real. It's the thinking of a psycopath. It the normal thought pattern of men, of 'good men'.

I remember a moment as a young women when I really realised how different my experience of the world is different from men's. I was talking to a male colleague, a young man, about my weekend, 'Yeah I went to the beach, did this, did that, on the way home at the bus stop I got hassled by a guy, you know how it is'. then stopped, as I realised he doesn't know how he is, as fending of unwanted attention from men who won't take 'no' is not something he experiences.

I have to remind myself of the good men I know who are not like that.

Though I must say the massive proliferation of misogynistic porn does not make me optimistic. I don't see men can see the equality and dignity of women and truly respect them if they are masturbating to porn that degrades and humiliates women. And the fact that all around the world men are choosing to watch women being treated that like and enjoying it really disturbs me.

@HitthatroadJack

I don't like extreme views

because even if you had a point, when you exaggerate too much, your point becomes untrue and you lose credibility.

I could say that the rudest, goady and abusive comments I have seen on this forum were from (self-proclaimed, it's anonymous after all) women.

I honestly do not believe there's any solution in hating and accusing half the population of being against the other.

@HitthatroadJack. I think you are taking the piss, right?

That attitude comes straight out of the misogynistic-arsehole culture my son's father subscribes to.

Give us your solution then, we're all ears.

I'm not sure that underneath the surface much has changed, men are just more nervous about being hauled up in front of a disciplinary tribunal if they're too obviously sexist. When there are no witnesses around or no consequences for their behaviour a lot of men don't bother hiding their contempt for women

I have to say I have come to fear that this is true - and its the fact that so many men are watching truly horrible porn that makes me think this. There was a thread from 40+ women dating 40+ men who said it is like there are two men in one body. Men who seem nice and normal suddenly change in the bedroom and want degrading (to the woman) porn influenced sex. I was talking about this to a male friend, 50, and he said, how they are in the bedroom is who they really are. Have to say I agree. I have come to conclude that you can tell a guy's real personality by how he treats you in the bedroom. When I look back on my past relationships that has been true. Sex with a guy is like shorthand of his personality.

Not all men but enough men. Enough men to make life uncomfortable and miserable (and frightening).

The older I get the less I am willing to put up with.

If you were bitten badly by a dog and were naturally wary of dogs after that, no one would blame you for your nervousness. But if you have had hundreds (thousands?) of negative interactions from the small acts of sexism to harrassment, abuse and on to rape and domestic violence, you arent allowed to be nervous, or frightened or traumatised around men. We are warned about how we have to change our behaviour to stay safe and also that its our fault if we become victimised - how often do you see posters telling men how to avoid raping or abusing women? I am delighted to see a rise in old school 2nd wave/radical feminism.

Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez is a fascinating book about how the world is set up for men, from seatbelt design to toilet design.
Another one that is excellent at dismantling stereotypes is Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender. She also wrote Testosterone Rex which is also excellent.

DD is 5. In her class, there's a boy who touches her. It's not entirely clear if the teacher knows or what DD has told the teacher or how often it happens or whatever so I'm not yet at a point at which I'm going to go nuclear on the school. But I have been role playing with DD what to do if and when it happens again. But it's so hard because we'll practice and she'll start with asking him not to touch her, and then when he continues, her answer is to tell the teacher. And I keep telling her that no, she doesn't have to do that. I tell her to shout or say loudly, "Stop touching me. I don't like it." and then, if the teacher asks her, to say that she asked him to stop but he didn't. But the rule that she must be kind to the other children and not shout etc is so ingrained that she is struggling to understand that when he's not being kind to her she has the right to make her unhappiness clear. She thinks she'll get into trouble if she shouts at him. I've assured her that she won't and if her teacher does get cross, she can tell me and I will come and speak with her teacher

Boys have to deal with this too. My son is 7 and tiny, barely on the growth charts. He has started telling me that the other boys grab him and when he tells them 'no' they don't stop. Obviously as girls get older there is a whole sexual aspect to boundary setting, but boys have to deal with physical aggression from other boys, and boys need to learnt about consent and boundaries in physical play with each other too. I really worry for my son being a small, sensitive boy in a society where machismo is valued.

Whats interesting is most of the women on this thread are talking about being scared of men, being angry with men or mysogynistic culture, hating the way men make them feel or just having "had it" with them. The ONLY people talking about women "hating" men are the people arguing against this thread like HitThatRoadJack . Why do some people (women as well as men) see women talking about how bad male treatment of them has made them feel, or their legitimate anger and interpret that as "hatred of men". In some cases at least it would be projection. I would never saunter into the Black mumsnetters section, find a cathartic thread in which posters talk about the racism they have suffered and express their feelings and go "waaahhhh you hate white people". Because I acknowledge that even though I personally might consider myself opposed to racism its not all about me.*
*And I know posters like HitThatRoadJack are probably female. But they are still insisting on putting how (they imagine) men might feel on reading the hurty comments, over how women feel at being consistently sexually harrased from childhood. Because god forbid any man might have hurty feelings.

@TheDogisBarkingAgain😢😢😢💐💐💐

yetanothernamitynamechange

technically if you read the post I have quoted, it's clearly not just "men" who are hated by some posters... I am allowed to see an issue with that attitude.

Let alone the fact that insisting that us women are born victim is much more damaging on all levels than anything else. But each to their own, people like to rant and shout.

@lostintheday yes, men (and boys) can suffer a lot from the promotion of machismo and patriarchy generally as well as women. As I said before being "weak" (emotionally or physically) is portrayed as girly, and being a girl is the worst thing you can possibly be. Even the "strong" boys can suffer later, and are at risk of suicide, because they have been so conditioned not to show their feelings. It makes them dangerous to others and themselves. The answer usually given is that women need to counter this by being more empathetic, more forgiving, more like free therapists, but the problem wont be solved until we target it at its root. Male toxicity.

With you completely OP.

I am weary of it to my bones.

I have always been vocal about misogyny & patriarchy as I grew up in a very conservative, patriarchal society where DV was not only common but never ever challenged. Every female relative of my grandmothers’s generation was beaten and raped by their husbands and considered property.

As an adult I thought I had made a conscious effort to surround myself with good men. And women who knew good men.

In the last week alone I have argued with gay male friends who referred to women as ‘fish’ and thought it was not only funny but universally accepted that some gay men would rather women not exist because ‘that’s their sexual preference’. Because they don’t want to fuck them, women shouldn’t exist.

I have had to tell one of my closest friends that her very feminist, left wing partner has been harassing me by text because he is ‘sick’ of me having opinions he doesn’t agree with and my ‘aggressiveness’ when disagreeing with him is ‘unattractive’ and he ‘will not stand for it any longer’. My friend thinks I am over reacting and misunderstanding him and if I could just learn to let him speak without interrupting or disagreeing, things would be better. Her partner is a police officer.

I look at the women I am surrounded by - intelligent, courageous, compassionate women broken by men who treated them like sex objects, surrogate mothers or free domestic help.

And I agree with a previous poster that ‘woke’ men are just as bad, if not worse.

I know where I stand with a balls out woman-hater but have been floored by discovering the truth of some of the men who claim to be supporters of women’s equality, feminism and anti-patriarchy.

I was friends with one until I rejected his advances and the verbal abuse and hatred came out. I was approached by someone else who’d had the same experience with him, who discovered that not only did he befriend women with the sole expectation of sleeping with them but that he has a history of EVERY kind of violence against women as long as his arm, including the near murder of a wife and child who have a restraining order against him. He is attractive, successful, wealthy and great company and passionate about equality and fairness. And very very convincing.

My ex has been rewarded and recognised for his women positive attitude and educating his male peers on equality in the workplace. Women fawn over him and praise him and treat him like a god because of it. He is the very guy many women would cite when they say ‘not all men’.

I haven’t the time or the energy to list the many ways in which he hates women but his cruelty and abuse would fill several forums. I thought his behaviour was hatred of me, but having spoken to his most significant ex what he did to me pales in comparison to what he did and continues to do to her and is rooted in his hatred of women, especially those who call out his hypocrisy.

It’s exhausting.

@TheDogisBarkingAgain That's horrific. My heart dropped reading it. Wishing you all the best 💐