AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

@HitthatroadJack can you mention the poster who used the word hate please? I cant find anyone who talked about hating men or women, although some strong language has been used, and one person used the word poison, I cant find anyone actually saying they hate men/women....

And yes, like a PP mentioned- all the ‘self Id’ issues are something I’m focussing on now too - women need safe spaces away from penis people

One of the disturbing aspect of that debate is how I know 'progressive women' who are now arguing that men assaulting men is exactly the same thing as men raping women. And from this concluding that we don't need female only spaces.
So there we go, in 2020 progressive left women now arguing against penetrating a women's body as being a particularly vile, traumatic, misogynistic type of assault and because of that arguing against preventative measures to stop women being assaulted.
Its a man's world alright.

My late DP was the least sexist, least predatory man I have ever met. He genuinely liked and respected women, and would call out his sexist BIL whenever he made derogatory "jokes" about his wife, DP's sister, or about women generally.

But I was still when he told me that he had never spoken to his son about issues around consent and respect. I thought he got it, but he obviously didn't get it as much as I thought he did.

@lostintheday I actually think some radical feminists have fallen into a well laid trap as far as the trans/self-ID issues go. But thats maybe a whole other issue and I dont want to derail the thread.

I also have a lovely DP, though I don’t really feel like he “gets” this. When I get angry about this kind of thing he just gets defensive and says “well, it’s not all men”. And whilst he is right this attitude really annoys me.

When it's me that's what I get - when it's our DDs he "gets" it.

I supposed this is good in many ways that he's protective of our children but it does means it highlights to me how dismissive he can be of my concerns/experiences.

Fuck the patriarchy. Definitely with you today. I cut my hair today (and I like it). I don't appreciate "did you ask your husband?" Nor "well I bet he's got a bald spot on the back of his head then" when I answer the first question.

Because I have had the unfortunate experience of being raped as a child and an adult by both a teenage boy and an adult man I have fostered such an acute awareness in my DD (aged 9) of safety and bodily autonomy that she is militant about her privacy (online and in RL). I think it's an absolute shame her and her friends have had to become militant about it in the first place but in terms of risk, they are definitely much more switched on than previous (and my) generations. My DS's have that innate privilege and entitlement that comes with being born with a penis and no matter how much I talk to them about why this impacts their choices and behaviour they find it a difficult concept to grasp. I think we should be talking about sex and gender and its impact much earlier on in schools but it is still met with a lot of resistance.

@arethereanyleftatall

I'll hazard a guess that the posters defending men are (generally) younger. I didn't start properly paying attention till I was in my forties. Now I'm wiser, thus angrier.

Absolutely right.

@yetanothernamitynamechange. You make some very good points.

I did actually step away from MN for several years, as I found all the rage and anger really hard to deal with.

But that anger needs to be released, before it can transmute into positive change.

These discussions must be had, even if they are difficult to hear. I think this thread is very valuable.

The thing I find fascinating on these kinds of threads is the number of posters who say that their dh/df/fil/db/ds are good decent men. I genuinely don’t know any man that I could confidently assert this about. None of my male relations, that I’m aware of are rapists or murderers. They’re okay men, but in the main they’re unaware (and unwilling to make themselves aware) of their privilege and you wouldn’t have to scratch the surface very deeply to find, if not a dislike of women, then a failure to fully recognise the fellow humanity of women.
It’s nice to think that there are really good men out there, but I find it hard to believe it based on my own experience.

I realise that is a small thing but "the death of a thousand cuts" is the feeling patriarchy gives me.

yetanothernamitynamechange
if you read the post, you know exactly what I mean, no need to play the fake naivety card, it's childish and embarrassing

Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head on this forum, my point was merely that all you'll achieve is to bring a few similar minded people to girl fan and nod enthusiastically, nothing else.
That attitude does the opposite of helping women though.

Hang on though.... who is raising these men?

We are.

@yetanothernamitynamechange

@lostintheday I actually think some radical feminists have fallen into a well laid trap as far as the trans/self-ID issues go. But thats maybe a whole other issue and I dont want to derail the thread

I would absolutely love to hear your views on this, if you wanted to start a thread or even pm me. I think its really important to hear all range of views. If one hasn't understood and heard all sides of an argument, how can one know one's views are one's views?. So I'd be massively interested in your point of view

there is a load of very toxic stuff out there they are likely to absorb however hard we try

Exactly!

It is the sort of atmosphere we live in. Paul Celan wrote a poem "Death Fugue" ("Todesfuge") in which he describes the propaganda and racial hatred which led to the Holocaust as "Black Milk" which we are fed, and which we unthinkingly take in, and which "nourishes" our attitudes.

There is so much which is detrimental to women - and the access to pornography - especially violent pornography - which children of young ages are able to view feeds in to women and girls being "things" for male pleasure and nothing else. It is dehumanising - and when the humanity of anyone is taken away, then they become nothing.

Hang on though.... who is raising these men?

We are.

I have a DS - obviously I teach him about respect and all the things I think he should know - and he gets angry at some of the behavior towards his sisters - howevre I am not his only influence.

Indeed at 4 he came home from school and told me he didn't have to listen to me as I didn't have a penis - all his teachers were female - he quickly learnt what I said went - but he still picked up this idea.

I'm also pretty tried of it being women work to sort Men out.

I also agree with PPs who mention the impact of porn.

I online dated for a while recently and met some ‘great’ guys. Almost all, once it came to sex, talked about wanting to choke me and/or were obsessed with anal. This would come up in conversation very quickly and was seen as perfectly normal.

One said he knew it would be painful for me but that it giving him so much pleasure should make me want to do it.

And if you look at mainstream, free porn - I had a look after a friend said choking/anal thing came from there - the number of step mother/sister/friends daughter or ‘forced’ scenarios on those sites are off the scale.

If the exposure to choking and anal sex normalised men into thinking these are everyday, expected acts, then surely they are now being normalised into sexualising EVERY woman in their lives and feeling entitled to take what they want.

It’s terrifying.

@Letitgohhhh

I think that one of the core problems is that our legal system is entirely predicated on the idea that a man’s freedom is the paramount value in culture. The worst possible miscarriage of justice is that a innocent man be convicted and his freedom taken away. That is enshrined in law. Imagine if our guiding principle as a society was protecting life. If the lives of women and children were held in higher regard than the freedom of men?

Thank you for posting this.

Yes, it would be a Revolutionary concept, wouldn't it?

I agree:

'If you are not angry you are not paying attention'.
and
'Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them'.

@Angliski

Hang on though.... who is raising these men?

We are.

It isn't just the mum, fathers also raise children, as does role models in the media -as does pornography and access on-line.

I'm raising my DS(s plural) but so is their father. As much as I try to keep them safe. Their father frequently refers to my raising of the children as his " childcare" for when he can't spend "quality time with them" -he has minimal access that is what the court ordered. But when a court solicitor turns to me and asks me to "can you explain why he does this" -after he breaches the restraining order again whilst he is standing there in court-I mean WTF why do I need to explain why he broke a restraining order -WHY??! Followed up with "did you do anything to cause him to breach the order? Was he upset by something you did or said?" followed by his solicitor saying "he was broken hearted at the minimal contact with the children and the fact the eldest has chosen not to see him" he acted "out of character" -ok then -so the restraining order being breached 6 times is ok then? as he is "well respected at work and does a well respected profession " ok then...........

I hadn't contacted him but the assumption is that I goaded him -the system is loaded against women.

Stuck in my mind is the that incident in Between the Lines where the character played by Siobhan Redmond separated the word manslaughter into mans laughter.
Sometimes I just feel we are two different species after millions of years of evolution. Read The History of Women’s Bodies and break your heart.
I was part of the women’s movement in my youth and felt so hopeful after suffering daily gender discrimination. Some changes were made, many of which young women today take for granted but the basic male dislike of and need to dominate women remains.
Most women who make it up the ladder in govt etc positions play it by the patriarchy’s rules as “fake” men.
I could weep for my fellow women

TheDogisBarkingAgain

You poor love. You are right - this blight's your life. You were a vulnerable child - any of those men could have stood up for you, reported your enslavement (because that's what it was) to police or social services - but they chose to exploit you.

I hope that you have been able to make a good life for yourself in spite of all you've been through.

Sorry you're surrounded by cunts OP. Fwiw, the vast majority of men I know are lovely, and the ones that aren't are irritating for reasons not related to them being men.

I have a wonderful husband, father, brothers, grandfathers, uncles and male friends. Maybe one day I'll have a wonderful son too.

@HitthatroadJack

yetanothernamitynamechange if you read the post, you know exactly what I mean, no need to play the fake naivety card, it's childish and embarrassing

Of course you are free to say whatever pops into your head on this forum, my point was merely that all you'll achieve is to bring a few similar minded people to girl fan and nod enthusiastically, nothing else.
That attitude does the opposite of helping women though.

Your point is invalid as she's also broadened the discussion by raising points that you're deliberately ignoring, probably because you have no solutions.

Not helping you as a woman (man?), clearly, but a quick read through the pp shows that you cannot and do not speak for the majority on this thread.

I find threads like this confusing, and sometimes wonder if it is a cultural thing in this country, to have this strong anger/fear/resentment towards men. Or maybe I'm an anomaly.

I grew up in a VERY conservative, patriarchal country. The kind where it was common to find baby girls in hospital bins as no one wanted to raise a girl. But there was a growing generation of women who fought back, we went to school/uni, challenged norms, played sport and refused to get married on demand. In fact we now have a higher % of women working than in this country! And really the learning was - to not stay silent and repress feelings. It was a culture where if a man groped you, you wouldn't explain it away. You'd grab him by the ear and twist it. Weirdly empowering, because despite the law and society treating women as second class citizens, the societal expectation was still never repressing any feelings. You got angry, upset, cried, all in public. Cathartic and showed you that you DO have agency in fixing things. No one I know feels this strongly towards men at all.

Coming to this country in my 20s, and having been here for 15 years, I'm still so bemused by how much resentment and anger marks so many male-female interactions. I work in a very male dominated industry, with global travel, to warehouses and factories (not known for sensitivity training). I certainly see the rude jokes and sexist comments, but I shut it down immediately to the point no one dares to behave that way with me. To me, that is how you solve problems. You call the person out, and if they don't follow through, you get them reported. The same way you would if a female colleague was bullying you. Why spend all this time stewing and getting angry?

I have male dominated hobbies and have lived alone in a big city here for a decade. I'm no more scared of sexual assault than i am of being robbed. In fact, I have been mugged/burgled numerous times.

It has never occured to me to have such strong feelings towards men - some are shit, some are good, but at the end of day, none of them have the ability to upset my life unless i let them. I deal with individual men behaving badly and make sure I get the results I want. To give MEN any more importance in my life would be such a waste of my energy.

But I do wish young girls were taught to be more assertive, take less BS and have the same confidence a lot of young boys are instilled with (to take risks etc). The next generation of women will hopefully feel a lot more on power with men.

I completely agree with you.
I posted something similar months ago on a thread about harassment saying that I’ve been sexually harassed in multiple previous jobs. A poster came on to proclaim loudly that it had never happened to her thus implying it’s not that common. A poll of my female friends reveals it’s very bloody common and I really don’t understand women who try to minimise or brush away other’s experiences. If it hadn’t happened to you then great but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened to millions of other women and it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be addressed.