AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

A lot of women hit men, high rates of lesbian relationships have domestic violence

@User158340 stats please.

Because a lot more men hit women and gay male relationships have an even higher rate of DV.

One does not cancel out the other.

Why does it offend you so much that women want to talk about the violence inflicted on them by men?

Why is it so important to you to try to undermine and derail the discussion with ‘women are just as bad so there’ as if it’s a winning argument to beat us with?

Are men so fragile that they need you to be so offensive and patronising to women to save them?

Are you campaigning against DV against males or in gay relationships as consistently as you are campaigning against women on this thread? If not, why not?

@exPR

I hate all violence. The worst offenders of violence are certainly men.

I just don't think it helps to go down the rabbit of hole of saying it is due to masculinity when women are often violent as well.

Women aren't OFTEN violent though. That's just not true.

Better news in crime reporting though that two serial rapists have received whole life orders. And one of them was Reynhard Sinana who committed over 150 offences against male victims

I wonder if the fact that Sinana raped MEN has had anything to do with his sentence. I'm assuming that the other raped women - and I'm glad he got a whole life sentence, but that could have been because they couldn't justify a differential between the two.

I can recall when Sinana's offences were first reported the wave of horror that shook the male world because MEN were being raped. (And how many of them were attacked in court for being provocatively dressed? I'd be surprised if it was mentioned at all)

SchadenfreudePersonified yes that was my thinking about Sinana too sadly. The other offender did rape women, but primarily because the criminal justice system failed at so many stages that someone who should've already been serving a long sentence was free to walk the streets and do as he pleased.

@ImAllOut

Women aren't OFTEN violent though. That's just not true.

This. x 1000

[quote Coseynightin]@exPR The big question is does masculinity cause violence? I would say not. How do men change?

Alot of what is being talked about is behaviour issues and the majority of these are learnt[/quote]
I don't think the big question is whether masculinity causes violence. The big question is how as a society do we change the high levels of acceptance re male violence towards and abuse of women. A high ranking police officer a few months ago was whining because domestic abuse cases take up too much police time, so they don't have time to deal with "real" crime.

Ultimately MEN have to want to change. Men have to stop thinking that domestic violence is just a small issue, for women, and therefore irrelevant. Men have to accept that women taking 50% of leadership positions does not mean they are being discriminated against. Men have to be willing to step up and do some of the crappy drudge work that women have been doing for eons and that takes away from our freedom, flexibility and opportunities for other things. I could go on.

But of course, why would they want to do any of these things? Women get beaten up. Women do shitty jobs. Women deal with the crap parts of family life. There is no real incentive to fix things.

I also dont like the thinking that something inate in men innevitably causes violence. I think its mostly society, partly nature, but ultimately every time a man is violent towards a woman, hits a woman, rapes a woman, puts a woman down, makes a sexist joke to a woman, tells a woman to smile, leaves his wife to do all the childcare, avoids paying child-support, murders a woman its because they make a CHOICE to do so. I would really love to have a man explain to me why they make that choice, but strangely they arent as forthcoming on that subject as others

A high ranking police officer a few months ago was whining because domestic abuse cases take up too much police time, so they don't have time to deal with "real" crime.

Ages ago on Today Program they had two high ranking ploice women on to talk about why misogyny behavior out in streets shouldn't be a crime/hate crime - the gist seem to be it would take up too much police time and it would be silly women complaining about wolf whistles - which I though unlikely and very belittling - don't think they were keen on upskirting being a crime either.

Obviously that's as horrifying compare to domestic abuse which is killing three women every fortnight - but just showed me how low a priority it is for women and young girls going about their bussiness in public without unwanted harrisment is.

@yetanothernamitynamechange

I also dont like the thinking that something inate in men innevitably causes violence. I think its mostly society, partly nature, but ultimately every time a man is violent towards a woman, hits a woman, rapes a woman, puts a woman down, makes a sexist joke to a woman, tells a woman to smile, leaves his wife to do all the childcare, avoids paying child-support, murders a woman its because they make a CHOICE to do so. I would really love to have a man explain to me why they make that choice, but strangely they arent as forthcoming on that subject as others

Yes. This thread wasn't started to focus on violence (IIRC) and I think it's really important to make the point that this issue is far wider than the violence. The violence is hugely important but it's just the extreme end of the way in which men treat women badly day in and day out. And I think that's what a lot of the NAMALT crowd get confused by - they leap straight to the violence and beg us not to forget that "women can also be violent" or that "most men aren't violent" and completely ignore the death by a thousand cuts we're facing.

I'm so tired of chatting to the single mothers on the school run who are struggling because their ex's don't pay, don't turn up, aren't reliable etc. I'm so tired of reading on MN or hearing from friends about the ridiculous sexist comments and "banter" they have to put up with at work. I'm exhausted from consistently seeing men in politics and business, usually screwing it up, and being told it's sheer coincidence that these men are in these roles rather than women.

I have a wonderful DH who is doing his best to think about this stuff but I am so bored of having to be the one to keep the endless list of school events, play dates, friends, meals, social activities, sports activities etc in my head.

I can't bear the endless headlines and news stories in which women are treated differently to men by newspapers, courts, society etc. I'm tired of reading articles that only ever quote men (except, occasionally, about women's issues) and I'm tired of constant references to "Man whose name is mentioned and his wife".

I'm tired of reading about male violence for which women are blamed. I'm tired of men's crimes being downplayed because their victims were women or because the punishment might have negative long term consequences for the man.

I'm just tired. Really really tired.

There is a seperate thread already about the government survey, but I think its worth posting here too as it seems quite relevant: www.gov.uk/government/consultations/violence-against-women-and-girls-vawg-call-for-evidence

@SpaceOp im tired of women using the family court system and ultimate control over their children during break ups. It's not good for "my child" to see dad 50/50 , if you dont do what I want you cant see the kids

This is all about power and was ever thus.

[quote Coseynightin]@SpaceOp im tired of women using the family court system and ultimate control over their children during break ups. It's not good for "my child" to see dad 50/50 , if you dont do what I want you cant see the kids

This is all about power and was ever thus.[/quote]
Sure. Right. Cos that's what happens. Women usually refuse access to their ex's out of spite and malice. Totally. happens all the time. And the court agrees. Absolutely. You're so right.*

• no, you're not right at all. It's a load of bollocks but so many men etc honestly do think this is true and twist themselves in knots to find evidence to prove it.

Then start a thread on the subject? Although if you ask people for their stories about UK family courts you might find many women have had negatie experiences too.
And incidentally, the family court (in theory at least) tends to give custody to primary care givers who are usually women. It is also extremely rare for them to limit access for the other parent - generally there has to be quite significant, proven violence for that to happen. So if your lovely boyfriend is complaining that his bitch of an ex won't let him see his kids despite him taking it to court, have a think about what that might mean, for your own good as much as anyone elses!

The far bigger issue is the women who would love the fathers to be more involved and indeed to pay for their own children 🙄 but they weasel out of both. That is far more common.

Or fathers who go off without a backwards glance and make another family elsewhere, without any thought or support of the one he left behind.

@MsTSwift

The far bigger issue is the women who would love the fathers to be more involved and indeed to pay for their own children 🙄 but they weasel out of both. That is far more common.

No, no, the issue is women, always women. Whatever men do they are not to blame, it’s always women.

If only we would listen to the defenders of men on here, we’d come to our silly senses.

Sure. Right. Cos that's what happens. Women usually refuse access to their ex's out of spite and malice. Totally. happens all the time. And the court agrees. Absolutely. You're so right.

you should read threads on MN - so many examples of women doing exactly that, and god forbid the ex dares having a new girl friend who would be around with the kids.

That's the problem with generalising and exaggerating everything. You ruin your point and put people off listening.

Just in case anyone needs it you absolutely have permission to be thoroughly sick of men and male behaviour. It is total bullshit gaslighting to say otherwise.

@HitthatroadJack

Sure. Right. Cos that's what happens. Women usually refuse access to their ex's out of spite and malice. Totally. happens all the time. And the court agrees. Absolutely. You're so right.

you should read threads on MN - so many examples of women doing exactly that, and god forbid the ex dares having a new girl friend who would be around with the kids.

That's the problem with generalising and exaggerating everything. You ruin your point and put people off listening.

I DO read the threads on MN. And of course, there's the odd woman who comes on and says ridiculous things like she doesn't want the DC to meet their new sibling or whatever - but she's usually roundly told off.

Far more common is the woman coming on here to talk about how her ex is claiming she's keeping him from the children, he wants them for Christmas etc etc, and yet he regularly doesn't turn up for his regular visitation, lets the DC down at short notice etc etc. Or the women who have been fighting for years to get a measly £150/month out of their ex for child support. Or the ones whose ex doesn't bother to bath/feed/oversee homework etc on his days, so she's left to be the "baddie" spending her entire time with the children catching up on those things.

And this is true in real life as well.

A friend's ex contacted her the other day to say he's working this weekend so he can't have the kids. He didn't ask her or anything. Just "politely" texted her to say that he'd take the kids next weekend instead. Because of course, she has nothing better to do than rush to do his childcare.

Another man I know who separated from his wife and promptly moved away, but is outraged that she isn't so keen on him having the DC during the week as it would mean them travelling for a minimum of 90 minutes each way to get to school on unreliable public transport.

It’s interesting isn’t it that when we say some men do bad things we are told NAMALT and don’t blame all men for the actions of some.

But when women do bad things it’s not only used as a reason why all women should stop complaining about men but the reason some men are excused doing bad things in the first place.

I can’t imagine the energy it takes for a woman to have to deny that level of internalised misogyny and mental gymnastics on a daily basis.

but just showed me how low a priority it is for women and young girls going about their bussiness in public without unwanted harrisment is.

It's not even a priority period. It's no normalised that it's expected behaviour, something you just get on with as a female and complaining about it is deviation from the norm and as such "silly" ,"ridiculous ","OTT" etc.

And I think that's what a lot of the NAMALT crowd get confused by - they leap straight to the violence and beg us not to forget that "women can also be violent" or that "most men aren't violent" and completely ignore the death by a thousand cuts we're facing.

And then wonder why they get short shrift. We already KNOW NAMALT. We are mothers of sons, wives, daughters (although the latter isn't much of a recommendation in my particular case).

What we also know, is that you'll have to travel a hell of a long way to find a woman who has not - repeatedly - been at the receiving end of both individual and systemic sexism, casual sexism on a pretty much daily basis, physical harm, and at its very best unwanted sexual conduct which in the case of me and a far too large number of women out there really is a best-case scenario. At its worst, it's murder; in my case it was a violent and terrifying rape by two youths, a violent father, two separate cases of stalking, intimidation and threatening behaviour, constantly being approached by male strangers who seemed to think I craved their company and became very offended when I stated my preference for solitude, and on, and on, ad nauseam. They are stories sadly every woman is familiar with, and I suspect there are few of us who don't look over our shoulder when out alone at night.

All these issues are my personal experiences. Others' will vary but the script rarely does. Have any of the women posting here about similar issues ever been at the receiving end of this sort of behaviour from other women? Suffered sexual harm? Sexually threatening or predatory behaviour?

Me neither.

But the misguided, misogynistic, sycophantic, women-loathing servants of the patriarchy on this thread are quick to crawl out of the woodwork and remind us that 'women commit violence too'.

Go and read a few statistics, eh?

And then we get told we are generalising. We are not, we are talking about our own real lived experiences that keep on repeating and repeating. But if you use statistics thats wrong too.

Sorry, not just generalising "exagerating"