AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

For the people who are genuinely concerned about male victims of DV - it is a serious subject and one worthy of discussion just maybe, I would gently suggest, not on this thread. I made a new thread in which people could share advice and links and even personal experiences if they wanted to . But in short no-one should have to sufer, regardless of their gender. There is help out there if you need it, and if you want to support I am sure it would be welcome. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4103569-To-say-to-the-men-and-women-concerned-about-male-victims-of-domestic-violence

I was harrassed by a male colleague in a previous job and when I told my bosses (a man and a woman) they said "well who can blame him for fancying you".

So it was my fault.

@buckingmad

I was harrassed by a male colleague in a previous job and when I told my bosses (a man and a woman) they said "well who can blame him for fancying you".

So it was my fault.

Which I guess they thought was a compliment. Note also that the biggest insult shitty men (see Trump) think they can pay a woman is that they dont fancy them/want to have sex with them. When that really is so low down most womens list of concerns. But some women internalise it and expect other women to as well.

@SchadenfreudePersonified Thats why the "remedy" was often that the man married the victim of rape and that would make everything all right (for the men at least). Look at the (frankly horrific) story of Artemisia Gentileschi, and the only reason her rape came to trial was because her rapist backtracked on his promise to marry her.

I think this sunk in about 3 years ago for me. Until then I had mainly blamed being a victim of sexual abuse at the age of 6, two rapes, a violent attack, being drugged, and a serial cheat of a porn addicted husband on myself

@Whodofthunk
In my case it was mumsnet that helped me name what had happened to me for what it was. It was immensely helpful (possibly saved my life) but that thread (under a different username) felt so brutal at the time. It is hugely emotionally traumatic to face the truth, even though in the long term its the only way to heal. Because you still have to live in a world were the people who hurt you, or people like them, hold so much power.

@yetanothernamitynamechange mumsnet for me too. The solidarity of shared experiences really opened my eyes.

I may have said this already, but I also think where the NAMALT crowd are missing a trick is that while of course not all men are violent/sexually abusive etc, the vast vast majority of men continue to benefit from the subjugation of women and are frankly unwilling or unable to even acknowledge what is happening. See a PP's post about being on a bus with a man harassing her and none of the men stepping up. It might well be that those men were nervous of violence - I know my DH has mentioned before that he doesn't want to get involved for that reason - but it still infuriates me because as a woman stepping up, the risk of violence is even more significant and we do it anyway.

Every time a group of lovely, kind, gentle, family men get together at the pub to watch football or rugby and make jokes about having to give "the missus my credit card so she'd let me out today," or those same lovely, kind, gentle family men take up cycling or golf and ditch their wives and children for their own selfish reasons; or, when discussing promotions of people below them at work use phrases like, "not enough gravitas" or "is a bit emotional" about the women they are reviewing, they ARE contributing to the problem. Because the problem is that violence and sexual abuse of women stems from the fact that women are considered lesser. That men think that their feelings, desires, needs etc are more important.

Every single time a man rolls his eyes when a woman starts talking about this stuff.... the problem is there.

So actually, I'm not even willing to use the NAMALT disclaimer any more.

But as @exPR and others have pointed out - these same people don't believe that racism exists except when single individuals act in a blatantly racist way. I can tell you that I grew up in South Africa. I'd argue that I grew up in a pretty progressive family. But let's be very very clear - I have an excellent, almost entirely state-funded education that has set me up for life. This was achieved because I lived in a country where a small percentage of the population who were white (like me) were able to benefit from the vast bulk of that country's resources. I may not personally have been racist, but there is no doubt that my family was benefiting and supporting racist policies.

And don't forget either that "rape" was originally criminalised NOT because it was an horrific offence against women, but because it was damaging to the PROPERTY of men.

Or that martial rape was legal in the UK until 1991 because a wedding ring signifies consent and a husband has needs whether you want it or not.

I made a new thread in which people could share advice and links and even personal experiences if they wanted to . But in short no-one should have to sufer, regardless of their gender.

I saw your thread and I wholeheartedly agree that no one should suffer domestic abuse however I can guarantee no one will appear on that thread to say "not all women are like that!"

This is awful but I see on BBC News that they've reported a house fire today that has killed two young children and left the mother with life changing injuries, while the father has minor injuries. How awful that my first thought is that it could've been him!

Better news in crime reporting though that two serial rapists have received whole life orders. And one of them was Reynhard Sinana who committed over 150 offences against male victims

@FoxyTheFox No we won't :) But at least it means that the people who are genuinely concerned/affected by those issues can talk about it and hopefully some useful information/resources can be shared. And the people who just want to derail this thread dont have an excuse to do so.

@SpaceOp I agree and disagree. I do think that men benefit in countless ways even if they dont set out to be sexist themselves. However, I think that the structures and society that mysogyny creates can hurt men too. "Women are weak" translates into "men must be strong". "Women are too emotional to run things" translates into "real men never show their emotions (except anger) if they want to succeed" etc. And ironically a lot of the issues "what-about-men-ers" bring up are caused by this. In the same way racism/racist structures undoubtedly benefit white people including myself in ways we are not even aware of. However, racist structures contribute to making a society that is less healthy/happy than one that at least works towards equality. If only because a lot of people have to live with the nagging feeling that maybe they dont deserve what they have (and often sublimate it into being more racist/sexist so they dont have to confront that voice inside). That is NOT to say white people are in any way like the victims of racism that others are by the way. That would be insulting.
Thats before you even begin to look at the ways in which sexism and racism interact with and support each other.

And I don't want to derail this thread after I just complained about other people doing the same. But when my partner attacked me in front of my 3 year old son then that made my son a victim of DV the same way that I as. If you isolated those statistics you could say "50% of DV victims in the namitychange household are male". But that completely obscures the fact that the perpetrator was 100% male. So yes, 30% of DV victims are male, but most of those are victims of male abusers and in many cases were part of the exact same dynamic that women have been talking about on here (and that some men want them to shut up about). So actually, making life better and fairer for women would benefit men as well even if it also meant they had to move the fuck over in many areas. Not that benefitting men should be the only or indeed the main concern.

@yetanothernamitynamechange: absolutely, those are good points in that of course there ARE downsides to the patriarchy for men. And certainly it creates a world in which men have to be a certain way. I still feel that the overall approach taken by men is such that they are not incentivised to change things but it's true that in many cases that's because it doesn't even occur to them that there might be a way that's better not just for women, but for men too.

I want to thank every woman who has shared her experience and wisdom and weariness on this thread. It can be so lonely and disheartening to feel like you are the only one who finds it hard to deal with the attitudes and experiences listed here when everyone else ‘seems’ to think it’s fine.

It’s given me the energy to go back to my friend who said her partner calling me aggressive was my own fault for not agreeing with him and say the problem is him not me. If he wants an easy life, he can stay silent instead of expecting it from women.

To speak to my friend who cries on a weekly basis about how sidelined and silenced and taken for granted she is by her partner - a feminist! - and support her in speaking up more and being louder not quieter when he tells her men are not sexist, she’s just over reacting. He tells people she is a housewife, when she works full time and earns more than him because he doesn’t want people to think he can’t provide as man of the house. That’s one of the NAMALT poster boys.

As has been said time and again, the ‘good’ men, the NAMALTs, need to address sexism and toxic masculinity for their own benefit as much as for the benefit of women.

For everyone arguing ‘well men suffer more violence at the hands of men than women do so shut up’ why isn’t it obvious that the answer lies with change from men then?

Even if women never said another bloody word about men and let them do what they wanted, men would still be killing each other, still belittling and being violent to each other.

The problem isn’t just down to women and the solution isn’t just down to women either.

Anyone who doesn’t get that doesn’t care about men or women. Only how they personally benefit from the current set-up.

Covid been interesting in that these changes that “weren’t possible” ie working from home which my sister was told couldn’t possibly be allowed when she started her new job 🙄 are now the norm because they have to be. This could all be changed if the men in charge wanted it to be.

Absolutely, yetanother. Patrick Stewart has been brilliant in talking about the affect his violence had on the whole family, for example.

For those who keep bringing up NAMALT, here's a good read:
victimfocusblog.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

(And old one but a good one)

@exPR The big question is does masculinity cause violence? I would say not. How do men change?

Alot of what is being talked about is behaviour issues and the majority of these are learnt

[quote Coseynightin]@exPR The big question is does masculinity cause violence? I would say not. How do men change?

Alot of what is being talked about is behaviour issues and the majority of these are learnt[/quote]
Why is it up to me to know how men should change when so many imply I am not allowed to have an opinion on how they currently behave?

And for the record I would say that the current accepted standard for masculinity absolutely does cause violence.

If the way men currently behave is learned who are they learning it from? Other men and women who support them, saying it’s acceptable or not their fault.

If your only interest in this thread or my contributions is to put men at the centre of everything except responsibility then I am not interested in having any further conversation, because you are part of the problem and it’s not my responsibility to make you feel better about that.

Anyone in law enforcement, and probably A&E/health service, will tell you how heavily crime is rooted in domestic violence. A huge majority of offenders come from homes where domestic violence was commonplace. Tackling domestic violence should be a number one priority for everyone.

[quote Coseynightin]@exPR The big question is does masculinity cause violence? I would say not. How do men change?

Alot of what is being talked about is behaviour issues and the majority of these are learnt[/quote]
Masculinity causes violence. Being male does not. You're mixing your gender expectations up with sex.

@buckingmad

I was harrassed by a male colleague in a previous job and when I told my bosses (a man and a woman) they said "well who can blame him for fancying you".

So it was my fault.

Presumably your bosses lack the intellect to make a distinction between fancying someone and harassing them🤔 I see people that I fancy all the time, I do not ever harass any of them Finding something or someone attractive doesn't mean you have to then try to dominate and crush

The big question is does masculinity cause violence?

That is the big question to me, since depite my best efforts I have a teenage DS that seem to becoming a mysogynist and a bully right in from of my eyes....

Masculinity causes violence. Being male does not. You're mixing your gender expectations up with sex.

A lot of women hit men, high rates of lesbian relationships have domestic violence.

Violence is a lot more complex than just labeling it 'masculinity'.

Why are people violent? Because they're bad people. Or if we want to excuse them, they've got mental health issues.

I'm not sure if Twitter links work for everyone but thought this was highly relevant for the thread. A woman makes a joke about men going to live on the moon, and just look how many men post offensive comments.
twitter.com/hannahgordon_/status/1336983089873113088?s=19