AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

I absolutely have an agenda as you have yours.

Mine is to call out misogyny and sexism where I can.

That isn’t going to be changed by someone jumping in with NotAllMen every time a women shares her experience.

@exPR

I absolutely have an agenda as you have yours.

Mine is to call out misogyny and sexism where I can.

That isn’t going to be changed by someone jumping in with NotAllMen every time a women shares her experience.

But that isn't what's happening.

I have not responded directly to any stories of men with what about men?

I have responded to vague statements or statements that wouldn't be OK the other way round.

The title is whether OP ibu to have fucking had it with men. Yes she is, because all men are not the same.

@exPR

I absolutely have an agenda as you have yours.

Mine is to call out misogyny and sexism where I can.

That isn’t going to be changed by someone jumping in with NotAllMen every time a women shares her experience.

You say you call out sexism but there have been a number of outrageously sexist comments on this thread. Do we only call out the ones towards women?

@TheHoneyBadger

Honestly if you can stomach living with it get your Nigel into a conversation about rape conviction rates or the need for enthusiastic consent or how as a woman it is rational to see men as a threat and keep the conversation going rather than letting it be quickly swept under the rug. Then report back on how it goes.

Try it with your lovely dad too.

It's actually depressing to face the reality of what men think and believe.

To be fair to my DF and DH, DF has without prompting discussed how he doesn't walk behind women on their own after dark in case it worries them and DH has on a number of occasions brought up how reprehensible the behaviour of incel/mgtow/gamergaters types are.

Pretty sure DH and I have talked about the rape conviction rates as well.

I think the not all menz crowd are persistently missing the point a) of it being men as a group who are responsible even if there are normal individuals within that group. Just like white British people were responsible for the slave trade even if it wasn't each one of them.

And b) every woman or near enough will suffer some sort of misogyny from a man during their life whether it be catcalling, outdated views at work, stalking, rape etc.

So not all men do it but all men should be concerned about stopping it. But they aren't. Why?

Here's the thing, when I talk about men, I talk about men as a class. Because men as a class, are showing us every day who they are. They showed me more than once.

I can't even remember what happened with my cousin. All I get is flashbacks of smells and maybe one second images that make no sense.

I was 13 when 6 classmates pinned me down so another could do things to me. There were 4 more there. They did nothing. There was a girl there and she tried to help but her bf told her to not interfere or they'll turn on them. The implication that he won't help was clear. I grew up with those boys,I trusted them,I played with them. Their parents worked with my parents. None of that mattered when "Johnny" wanted something. They stood and watched. They helped.

I was 14 when my grandfather cornered me in my own bedroom. Mum was in the kitchen. He just wanted to say hello.

I was 17 when my maths tutor touched me inappropriately at a table with 4 other girls around it. His wife and son were in the house too. Can you even imagine such deviance? Such arrogance?

That's without many many incidents of harassment,cat calling, unwanted attention or touching in a bus ,club etc.

You tell me how I should live my life to keep safe from now on. You tell me exactly which man I can trust. You tell me which man is safe. You tell me it's NOT a matter of when.

I'm hoping I'm past my when. I'm praying with all my might that my daughter won't have hers, but that's just wishful thinking.

No, not all men are like that, but too many are and even more men will stand by and allow them to be like that.

I wish I was still idealistic ,naive and not broken enough to care so much about men that I'd jump into a discussion about how women suffer at the hands of men to ask "what about the men". In a way I'm glad that you are...

@thepeopleversuswork and @exPR - no apologies necessary. I agree with the points you're making about apologism, and since that conversation the thread's certainly escalated and has amply proved those points.

It's the fear too, and having to change your behaviour to avoid certain situations. I am middle aged and thought I was invisible and not going to be bothered by this shit but a guy in his 20s sat next to me on a bus in central London at the terminus. It was empty apart from me, he got on, made a beeline for me, sat next to me in a way that he was turned to face me, then put his hand on my leg. Because I was embarrassed and the bus started to fill up, I stood up and asked him to let me pass. He refused and told me to sit down, I was going nowhere. (Most of the other passengers either got off or looked away.) Long story short, other female passenger told him to let me pass, driver got involved. He was not asked to leave the bus but he let me pass eventually although he kept telling me to sit down, I stood away from him, but terrified he was going to follow me when I got off.

The upshot was that I walked after that, or I stood up on the bus so I could get away if something happened again. This was at 8 in the morning, I was going to work. I am pissed off with myself for changing my behaviour, but sick of these dickheads who rule the way we act. Men don't have to contend with this low scale harassment, it's so tiring and unpleasant.

@PurpleFeather

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

Yes. I saw a post on Twitter about how the only reason we have women’s refuges/hostels is pretty much because of men’s violence towards women. And we just accept that these refuges are needed as a normal part of society.

I had never thought of it like that before, but it’s true. It’s a truly sad sign of the way society is.

I often get angry as well about the treatment of ‘women’s’ illnesses - things like UTIs, endometriosis.

Can you IMAGINE if countless men suffered from recurrent, excruciating UTIs or the agonising pains and heavy bleeding of endometriosis. There would hands down be millions spent on research.

Don’t even get me started on hormonal contraception. Male pill trials stopped because men suffered mood swings etc. Boohoo.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Here's the thing, when I talk about men, I talk about men as a class. Because men as a class, are showing us every day who they are. They showed me more than once.

I can't even remember what happened with my cousin. All I get is flashbacks of smells and maybe one second images that make no sense.

I was 13 when 6 classmates pinned me down so another could do things to me. There were 4 more there. They did nothing. There was a girl there and she tried to help but her bf told her to not interfere or they'll turn on them. The implication that he won't help was clear. I grew up with those boys,I trusted them,I played with them. Their parents worked with my parents. None of that mattered when "Johnny" wanted something. They stood and watched. They helped.

I was 14 when my grandfather cornered me in my own bedroom. Mum was in the kitchen. He just wanted to say hello.

I was 17 when my maths tutor touched me inappropriately at a table with 4 other girls around it. His wife and son were in the house too. Can you even imagine such deviance? Such arrogance?

That's without many many incidents of harassment,cat calling, unwanted attention or touching in a bus ,club etc.

You tell me how I should live my life to keep safe from now on. You tell me exactly which man I can trust. You tell me which man is safe. You tell me it's NOT a matter of when.

I'm hoping I'm past my when. I'm praying with all my might that my daughter won't have hers, but that's just wishful thinking.

No, not all men are like that, but too many are and even more men will stand by and allow them to be like that.

I wish I was still idealistic ,naive and not broken enough to care so much about men that I'd jump into a discussion about how women suffer at the hands of men to ask "what about the men". In a way I'm glad that you are...

We might not agree but I really respect this post.

I can't even remember what happened with my cousin. All I get is flashbacks of smells and maybe one second images that make no sense.

I was 13 when 6 classmates pinned me down so another could do things to me. There were 4 more there. They did nothing. There was a girl there and she tried to help but her bf told her to not interfere or they'll turn on them. The implication that he won't help was clear. I grew up with those boys,I trusted them,I played with them. Their parents worked with my parents. None of that mattered when "Johnny" wanted something. They stood and watched. They helped.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose that is awful. Just awful. I've been through something very similar, and as a cPTSD sufferer myself I'm very familiar with the disjointed flashbacks (mine was the red pattern on the carpet and a feeling of being engulfed and suffocating) when in a not dissimilar situation to the one you described.

It's a textbook response to trauma, and the seriously infuriating thing is that what chance in hell would we stand of securing a conviction in those circumstances? An experienced barrister would make mincemeat out of us, like the one I watched unfolding on Twitter (now thankfully disbarred by the Bar Standards) who tried to tell every victim of CSA that she'd imagined the whole episode, was making it up, that 'false memory' was a real concept in every single case, and that monsters like Harvey Weinstein were nothing more than poor little victims of a media witch hunt.

Then my own father told me that if the two youths who raped me did this to anyone else, it would be my fault.

I've learned throughout life, with later instances of sexual harrassment and stalking, that society is so uncomfortable with the idea that their avuncular male colleagues and relatives could be predators that it must always be the woman who is lying.

No wonder women are angry with men and who can bloody well blame us? Then certain other women simply cannot understand why the NAMALT defence makes women who have been in this position see red.

*You say you call out sexism but there have been a number of outrageously sexist comments on this thread. Do we only call out the ones towards women?

I can’t say I’ve seen any sexist comments about men that weren’t from people implying that as men aren’t responsible for themselves it’s up to women to police and change them. That’s implying men have no agency when it comes to negative behaviour towards women, which is sexist.

If there have been other sexist comments I’ve missed on a thread where women are venting their anger and frustration about their experiences does that mean everyone contributing is wrong?

In the wider context does sexism towards men have the same wide-reaching, pervasive, daily grinding impact on them as sexism towards women does?

I’m not denying sexism towards men but if you compare on a scale of impact, how would it look?

Unless you are also NotAllWomening on male forums where they aren’t just talking about how awful women are but discussing how to punish them then your whataboutery, your demands for justification, your devils advocacy looks like excusing and goading.

In none of the posts here has anyone called for punishment or retribution on men for the things they have carried out.

On the equivalent male forums all they talk about is punishment.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose I’m so sorry

@exPR

*You say you call out sexism but there have been a number of outrageously sexist comments on this thread. Do we only call out the ones towards women?

I can’t say I’ve seen any sexist comments about men that weren’t from people implying that as men aren’t responsible for themselves it’s up to women to police and change them. That’s implying men have no agency when it comes to negative behaviour towards women, which is sexist.

If there have been other sexist comments I’ve missed on a thread where women are venting their anger and frustration about their experiences does that mean everyone contributing is wrong?

In the wider context does sexism towards men have the same wide-reaching, pervasive, daily grinding impact on them as sexism towards women does?

I’m not denying sexism towards men but if you compare on a scale of impact, how would it look?

Unless you are also NotAllWomening on male forums where they aren’t just talking about how awful women are but discussing how to punish them then your whataboutery, your demands for justification, your devils advocacy looks like excusing and goading.

In none of the posts here has anyone called for punishment or retribution on men for the things they have carried out.

On the equivalent male forums all they talk about is punishment.

I'm certainly not goading. If you look at my recent post to the person I have disagreed with the most , I really respect their views.

I don't think you're right there though. Going over to a man's forum I'm not part of is exactly what you're accusing me off. - off to be noble and brave and fight the other side.
I'm responding to questions asked on a site I'm on.

I mistake it. Said barrister wasn't disbarred, she was suspended from practice for two years. So she'll be quite free to return to her profession and peddle the same damaging BS, including her 'false memory' theories about childhood rape victims plus her advocacy for the lowering of the age of consent.

She's poison and utterly unfit to practice. Never mind handmaiden: this one's an Aunt Lydia of the highest order.

Sexism like racism has to have power behind it. This calling women sexist for taking about male behaviour is like calling a person of colour racist for talking about how white racists have treated them.

Or calling someone on a council estate classist for calling boris posh

Missing the point.

@TheHoneyBadger

Sexism like racism has to have power behind it. This calling women sexist for taking about male behaviour is like calling a person of colour racist for talking about how white racists have treated them.

Or calling someone on a council estate classist for calling boris posh

Missing the point.

If a black person said all white people treat me like this , that is racist.

Like the PP who claimed all white British people at the time were responsible for slavery.

I'm not looking for sympathy,but it's much appreciated. I'm not looking to merail either.

The truth is I personally (and I know many women who feel and have been through similar) have nothing left to give. The little I do have is spent on myself,on my daughter,on all the other women and children.
So NAMALT, women do it too,what about the... at best leaves me cold, if I'm in a bad place.. it just hurts and fills me with rage. The pointlessness of it all, the impotence, the lack of change.

I just want to support other women,maybe get some myself without having to defend myself or see other women defend themselves against "how is this fair on men?" again,and again and again. Every single time.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

I'm not looking for sympathy,but it's much appreciated. I'm not looking to merail either.

The truth is I personally (and I know many women who feel and have been through similar) have nothing left to give. The little I do have is spent on myself,on my daughter,on all the other women and children.
So NAMALT, women do it too,what about the... at best leaves me cold, if I'm in a bad place.. it just hurts and fills me with rage. The pointlessness of it all, the impotence, the lack of change.

I just want to support other women,maybe get some myself without having to defend myself or see other women defend themselves against "how is this fair on men?" again,and again and again. Every single time.

Yeah , fair enough. I agree. Given your last post it would be ridiculous of me to continue so I will hang about if only to read these amazing stories and sink in what you are saying.

I honestly never meant to goad or offend.

Nobody has said all men, every single man in the world.
Not one person.
Alot of us do feel that its enough of them to have a negative effect on our lives, when we're travelling around, working, excersising. Partying, dating all sorts of things.
Its enough of them that we change our behaviour, even if we dont know for sure that one of them is around.
We also don't know which ones are like that often until its too late and often when we thought he really wasn't like that at all.

*If a black person said all white people treat me like this , that is racist.

Like the PP who claimed all white British people at the time were responsible for slavery*

If a black person told me all white people treat them badly, I wouldn’t call it racist, I’d call it highly likely.

We are a structurally racist society where everything has been rigged by white people in power to benefit them and exclude and punish others.

Patriarchy is the same.

And the argument that not all white people were responsible for slavery at that time has parallels to what we are saying about men as a class :

Anyone who benefits from a system they know to be rigged to favor some and exclude and punish others and doesn’t challenge it because they don’t want to lose the privilege it gives them is condoning it, regardless of how good or how far removed from the baddies they consider themselves.

@malificent7 this isn't a criticism of you but I think we need to do more than rolling of eyes.

Before I started at current workplace I'd read some dodgy glassdoor reviews about sexism. I needed the job. It took about 2 months before the comment was made. I loudly challenged the comment, a guy next to me agreed and the comment was never made again. Someone has got to make it clear it isnt on. I don't go to work to be disrespected and neither should any woman.

@thepeopleversuswork

TheHoneyBadger

"I'm also deeply bored of them. Bored of their voices, bored of their opinions, bored of how much space they take up, bored of their neediness and expectations that we're meant to centre their needs, bored of them pestering exhausted women for sex, bored of them being lazy at work, bored of the woke ones lecturing women about transphobia etc etc etc."

You have basically summed up my entire worldview .

I might get this written out in neon above my bed.

YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES,

The fucking entitlement of it all. They think women exist to facilitate the ease and smoothness of their lives and the inner rage emerges when we dare to say NOPE to any of their entitled demands.

@exPR

I absolutely have an agenda as you have yours.

Mine is to call out misogyny and sexism where I can.

That isn’t going to be changed by someone jumping in with NotAllMen every time a women shares her experience.

Perfectly said, ExPR

Kimchi is coming across as a crashing bore, so self satisfied with “oh look at me “whatabouting” and getting all the attention. Yay you, kimchi, but this thread is not for you or your opinion. Go and start another one that suits your agenda.
A lot of women on this thread have been brave enough to post some deeply personal experiences where they have been harmed by men. Your contributions are useless, dull and unappreciated by the posters who’ve found this thread to be supportive and interesting.
We’d probably all get banned if we said what we really wanted to you, or is your standard schtick to call anyone why doesn’t buy your bullshit, a bully?

@TheHoneyBadger

Sexism like racism has to have power behind it. This calling women sexist for taking about male behaviour is like calling a person of colour racist for talking about how white racists have treated them.

Or calling someone on a council estate classist for calling boris posh

Missing the point.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏