AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

@Sandals19

In fact I've read that until relatively recent times (on an evolutionary scale) it can be seen in DBA that the majority of men did not pass on their DNA, with the implication the majority of men did not have regular sex; it was a small group of "alpha" men who impregnated the women and passed on their genes.

Meanwhile you have 50% of more of that population wired to want sex and to reproduce (the latter not usually being their primary objective obviously) ... It made me wonder if some of them have actually evolved to be sexually predatory and opportunistic as a result.

We can want humans to be thinking, ethical, empathetic creatures but the reality is we're partly that, and partly selfish, ruthless, base animals.

You could say men are clearly the most base - hence their vast dominance of crime figures for violent and sexual crimes; but is that just due to the differences of biology (most women have always and will continue to have sex and reproduce if they wish to; they may not do so with the security they'd prefer but they still do, most women are less physically string and aggressive, some women do unethical, unempathetic but they're unlikely to involve sexual or violent crimes because of biology).

Presumably by the same token, you're ok with men beating up others at work to rise up the hierarchy (or maybe just on a night out, when they've had a few drinks and the poor dears can't help themselves), or flinging poo to prove a point like a chimp?

How is it that we expect men to overcome their supposed 'base animal instincts' in most of life, but sexual violence against women is apparently not able to be overcome?

@Sandals19

A form of eugenics dare I say

Really interesting points though. I think it's virtually impossible to eliminate entirely. As with racism, some people just aren't interested in changing their behaviour.

If you want evidence take a look over at Pistonheads, News/Politics forum. I don't post there any more but it's depressing as hell. I've had full on arguments about racism/sexism and there are huge numbers that just won't have any of it and are unwilling to see an alternate view.

I work far longer hours than most of my male colleagues because I have to fit in caring responsibilities but yet they are still so unwilling to give an inch in order for me to fulfil these. And still I endlessly have to play nice and not be too aggressive and stroke their egos
In their minds they are inherently superior, more deserving of power and status, their discomfort at and unwillingness to tolerate being bested by a woman means they will always seek to undermine women whilst promoting their own interests

Great post thepeople I agree so much about the way work is set up.

I'm self-employed in a field where I mainly work with women, but shocker the senior management of the companies I work for is usually men. These senior, well-paid men mostly know jack shit about best practice or the ongoing detail of the job. They are just there to Be Senior and stick their oar in unconstructively which then has to be undone by the women actually doing the work.

Occasionally I work directly with a male project manager and they almost always think they know better than me when they don't (I'm happy to be corrected when necessary), slack off on key tasks, are poor at communication, and mess me around in a way that is very rare with my female colleagues and managers. There is often a sense of resentment and cock-waving because I'm successful in my field and they need to get one up on me. FWIW I'm known for being amenable and reliable and am not a PITA to work with.

I actually have to be careful to rein in my prejudice when I work with a man for the first time, because my previous experiences don't mean he'll be the same, he might be great.

But so far, they haven't been. 25 years and counting.

@Yohoheaveho

I work far longer hours than most of my male colleagues because I have to fit in caring responsibilities but yet they are still so unwilling to give an inch in order for me to fulfil these. And still I endlessly have to play nice and not be too aggressive and stroke their egos In their minds they are inherently superior, more deserving of power and status, their discomfort at and unwillingness to tolerate being bested by a woman means they will always seek to undermine women whilst promoting their own interests

That's true and I think also they have this instinctive reaction which says "if you want to play like the boys you have to play by the boys' rules" (ie that you have to ape male behaviour and seek to push your domestic responsibilities onto someone else in the same way that they do with their wives and partners.)

They realise that any genuinely equitable distribution of domestic labour would impact their ability to earn money and their freedom. They are uncomfortable with a model which requires both sexes to both earn money and be domestically effective.

Also when they see women able to more or less effectively juggle work with domestic responsibilities and still outperform them it makes them feel profoundly inferior because the clear implication is that the women are more effective than them. Which they are

Hence the contempt.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks @GlummyMcGlummerson

I don’t see it as offensive to women and I’m a woman. I can’t stop somebody breaking into my house but I can make sure I have taken all precautions because there are people out there who have no morals.

When out I’ve seen both sexes absolutely paraletic like most people have and imho it is silly because it presents all sorts of dangers.

[quote Coseynightin]**@MarieIVanArkleStinks* @GlummyMcGlummerson*

I don’t see it as offensive to women and I’m a woman. I can’t stop somebody breaking into my house but I can make sure I have taken all precautions because there are people out there who have no morals.

When out I’ve seen both sexes absolutely paraletic like most people have and imho it is silly because it presents all sorts of dangers.[/quote]
How many men do you know who have been assaulted or raped when drunk? How many women? Do you ever worry about your female friends or relatives getting too drunk and being in danger? Do you feel the same concern for male friends and relatives?

HerselfIndoors

Totally recognise this "Be Senior" syndrome.

My industry is absolutely rife with it -- big swinging dicks who want to swish around in well-tailored suits looking authoritative as the face of the teams but leave the detail and the graft to the juniors.

Its ultimately self-defeating because they end up exposed but bizarrely its almost encouraged in my industry: attention to detail and the ability to put in the work is almost a sign of weakness.

Presumably by the same token, you're ok with men beating up others at work to rise up the hierarchy

You see I knew my post would be conveniently taken that way by some poster; even though I quite clearly said I'm not "ok" with anything, or excusing it.

Aside from that main point; don't be wilfully obtuse about those different scenarios.

Men don't usually rape women in work, in public, in the open etc either.

So the theoretical scenario of men fighting each other physically to move up the hierarchy is comparing like with like. Of course it doesn't and wouldn't happen (except in rare cases where work colleagues came to fisticuffs, but that wouldn't factor into their promotion), just like public, open, habitual in an office doesn't usually happen and would never be accepted. We've evolved our way out of both (except in war situations).

Moreover, your scenario just emphasises the point that men who are sexual predators are exactly that; fighting and attempting to beat up other men would be risky to them, even if they want to do it.

Sexually assaulting and raping women is much less risky to them.

And even less risky is the woman is vulnerable to some extent due to alcohol (or drug) use .... Back to the original point being debated.

Maybe some of them would be put off being sex offenders if the law worked to discourage it.
But men know just as well at women that rape is practically legal in this counrty.
They can act out with impunity and they know it.

How is it that we expect men to overcome their supposed 'base animal instincts' in most of life, but sexual violence against women is apparently not able to be overcome? hmm

We do expect men to overcome any base instincts to sexual violence - hence it is a crime (although crime that is woefully under prosecuted and under sentenced, but that's a slight detail).

That doesn't mean that there won't always be a portion of the male population who commit violent and sexual crimes.

Stridently declaring they shouldn't (and not making women aware of things that make them even more vulnerable to those men) does not change that.

*slight derail

In work scenarios, I have noticed sadly that some female junior colleagues see senior male colleagues as more important than female senior colleagues even though the seniors are the same level. It's getting better but there seems to be more respect for the male colleagues however misplaced it is. Which is obviously depressing.

Most women have a huge list of bad treatment by males starting from an early age to death, and ranging from the minor to the major.

One of the most naked bits of male aggression I have seen was the jogger running across Putney Bridge who deliberately went out of his way to shoulder ram a woman who was not near him/doing anything, and who fell into a bus lane. Luckily a bus coming slammed on brakes. Despite CCTV they never found the bastard. I have also been shoulder slammed like this, a runner has deliberately ran into me for no reason. I have seen it done to other women on station concourses too, where it was not crowded, but they saw the opportunity to inflict hurt with any comeback.

A lot of men abhor women. A lot of women now feel the same about men. The difference is we don't inflict violence on them.

Ive recently had a horrible experience.
He didn't rape me but I was scared that he might.
So I went along with it.
As the least risky option to me.
In a situation I couldn't easily get out of with a man who had showed himself to be quite sick and probably dangerous.
I knew, it crossed my mind, that if I struggled and he raped me, even violently, he would get away with it.
This was someone I've known a long time and trusted.
I doubt he thinks he did anything wrong at all.
Would he care even if he did know?
Who's gonna stop him from scaring and hurting women?

The difference is we don't inflict violence on them
But why don't we?
Is it because mostly we couldn't get away with it, we know that we would come off worse?

@MoonPomme

Maybe some of them would be put off being sex offenders if the law worked to discourage it. But men know just as well at women that rape is practically legal in this counrty. They can act out with impunity and they know it.

Our justice system for sex crimes does seem to be a joke.

Our efforts should be on fighting that.

There's also education from young age about sex, & relationships - which is happening to some extent but not adequately.

Then there's the porn issue - which is now more violent and degrading than its ever been imo.

Then there's the media is TV, films - where I still feel everything from.u healthy relationships to sexual violences I'd portrayed as "sexy".

Look at fifty shades - and that's not even men buying it and promoting it. It's written by a woman and mostly consumed by women.

In big corporates, they may be presented with evidence of how women are discriminated against in a multitude of ways but I've lost track of the number of times I've heard directly or indirectly that when processes are put in place to manage this the men do so only because they have to, never because they actually truly believe the issue needs to be fixed

That’s a really important point @SpaceOp. How much of the increase in misogyny or anti woman sentiment is down to men feeling that because they ‘have’ to treat women differently than they’d choose to in the workplace, they feel the need to ramp the sexism, the banter, the misogyny, up in their personal lives to prove no one is the boss of them. They’ll call women sluts for having sex and tell them to go make a sandwich all they want harharhar. No pc bolloxs is going to stop them telling the truth etc.

There are parallels to what is happening with racism and the BLM movement - technically we have never had so many anti racist/discrimination laws yet racist sentiment has never been so prevalent.

There’s huge resentment that suddenly people who have been deemed ‘lesser’ or ‘other’ are being given the same chances in life and succeeding through skill or determination whilst the people who were getting through life on privilege and entitlement are being left behind and blaming everyone else for the lack.

Navigating this society as a woman can be depressing enough at times. I cannot imagine how hellish it must be to navigate it as a women of colour.

@MoonPomme

Ive recently had a horrible experience. He didn't rape me but I was scared that he might. So I went along with it. As the least risky option to me. In a situation I couldn't easily get out of with a man who had showed himself to be quite sick and probably dangerous. I knew, it crossed my mind, that if I struggled and he raped me, even violently, he would get away with it. This was someone I've known a long time and trusted. I doubt he thinks he did anything wrong at all. Would he care even if he did know? Who's gonna stop him from scaring and hurting women?

I’m so sorry to hear that @MoonPomme. If you had sex with this man out of fear of what he would do if you didn’t, then it is still sexual assault. This was coercion.

As to would he care if it was wrong - if he is the type of man to instil such fear in an intimate setting then no, he won’t.

You can help stop him from hurting others by reporting him but I understand that might not be something you want to do and that is your choice.

You should talk this through with someone equipped to support victims of sexual assault.

I’m sorry you went through this. I believe you.

Take care

@exPR - I think you are me. I was going to make a comment about being a woman of colour in my earlier post but decided not to. I did speak to a couple of black woman about this recently for a work project and it was just awful. It's not that all their experiences are different to mine, but that they are just so much worse and so much more prevalent. It was incredibly depressing.

@Sandals19

Presumably by the same token, you're ok with men beating up others at work to rise up the hierarchy

You see I knew my post would be conveniently taken that way by some poster; even though I quite clearly said I'm not "ok" with anything, or excusing it.

Aside from that main point; don't be wilfully obtuse about those different scenarios.

Men don't usually rape women in work, in public, in the open etc either.

So the theoretical scenario of men fighting each other physically to move up the hierarchy is comparing like with like. Of course it doesn't and wouldn't happen (except in rare cases where work colleagues came to fisticuffs, but that wouldn't factor into their promotion), just like public, open, habitual in an office doesn't usually happen and would never be accepted. We've evolved our way out of both (except in war situations).

To your point here though - are many 'decent' men with families and good jobs also robbing others or beating up other men away from others either? No, because they either see it at morally repugnant or likely to lead to bad consequences, yet rape is more acceptable.

There’s huge resentment that suddenly people who have been deemed ‘lesser’ or ‘other’ are being given the same chances in life and succeeding through skill or determination whilst the people who were getting through life on privilege and entitlement are being left behind and blaming everyone else for the lack
I agree and I think this could be driven by the human propensity to weigh losses heavier than gains...no one wants to take a hit and if we do take one we immediately seek some compensation, to redress the balance and restore the status quo that favoured us

@Coseynightin

I don’t see it as offensive to women and I’m a woman. I can’t stop somebody breaking into my house but I can make sure I have taken all precautions because there are people out there who have no morals.

WOMEN ARE NOT HOUSES!!!

They're humans

And BTW you don't speak for all women so I really don't care if it doesn't offend you.

I take it that if a straight man is raped by another man it's his own fault in your eyes for "leaving his door open?"

Thanks exPR.
I probably do need to speak to someone.
Im feeling a lot of guilt and shame about it.
I did consent so I'm not really sure what it was just that I feel awful about it and that I never want to be anywhere near him ever again.
He contacted me again this week so thats dragged it up again.
I won't be reporting it. I know there is no point.

There’s huge resentment that suddenly people who have been deemed ‘lesser’ or ‘other’ are being given the same chances in life and succeeding through skill or determination whilst the people who were getting through life on privilege and entitlement are being left behind and blaming everyone else for the lack

Yes - and I think it's also that when men have had that privilege and not really understood it or realised it, they've put it down to their superiority and they don't understand the work that's needed to succeed when you don't have the advantage.

It's literally like a playing field that looks level but is actually tilted. The team at the top end will always have it easier and tend to win and think they're better. When the other team demand it be made flat, the upper team will suddenly find it so much harder. While the lower team will have an advantage from it being flat, as they're used to working harder. Cue upper team moaning and complaining that it's not fair.