AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

@Russellbrandshair it is called taking personal responsibility. Women can go and drink as much as they like but when they are bladdered and have too much to drink the chances of something happening are a lot higher. Of course you can teach men not to rape but if the man is drunk as well there’s less chance of thinking straight. we do not and will never live in a utopian society.

Comparisons to robbing- do you leave your front door open when you are out? No why is that cos there are people that will take advantage. It is the same.

[quote Coseynightin]@Russellbrandshair it is called taking personal responsibility. Women can go and drink as much as they like but when they are bladdered and have too much to drink the chances of something happening are a lot higher. Of course you can teach men not to rape but if the man is drunk as well there’s less chance of thinking straight. we do not and will never live in a utopian society.

Comparisons to robbing- do you leave your front door open when you are out? No why is that cos there are people that will take advantage. It is the same.[/quote]
Just wow. We can teach men not to rape. We need to teach men not to assault another human being. Words fail me.

I don't really care if NAMALT I think clearly enough of us are like that for there to be such a perception and it's a shame

[quote Coseynightin]@Russellbrandshair it is called taking personal responsibility. Women can go and drink as much as they like but when they are bladdered and have too much to drink the chances of something happening are a lot higher. Of course you can teach men not to rape but if the man is drunk as well there’s less chance of thinking straight. we do not and will never live in a utopian society.

Comparisons to robbing- do you leave your front door open when you are out? No why is that cos there are people that will take advantage. It is the same.[/quote]
Why should a drunk woman be considered an 'open door' in the first place, especially among friends or coworkers?

And similarly, even if someone did leave their door unlocked and someone else chanced it, came in, and left their home absolutely trashed (because a nice clean 'robbery' is not how a sexual assault feels), that person is still entirely to blame, surely? What if, even worse, that person only knew the door was unlocked because they were supposed friends or nice colleagues who had been hanging out earlier? Wouldn't they be even more despicable? Because for many assaults on women who have been drinking, that is the case.

Finally, how many drunk women sexually assault other people? There's a reason that so.many men, drunk, feel comfortable to assume the right to have sex with a woman without her consent.

If someone's door was open I wouldn't rob them. If my husband or another man I was attracted to (or not in some cases) was drunk, I certainly wouldn't force myself on them. I'm not sure how it's a woman's responsibility not to get drunk because someone might rape her.

@exPR

YANBU. I feel that women's rights have completely regressed. I actually have to stop thinking about it so much because it's so depressing

I agree @GlummyMcGlummerson. In the last few years the hate for women seems to have expanded hugely.

I think a PP linked it to men feeling aggrieved because women are ‘taking’ things away from them - jobs, status and presumably a life where they get to be the big boss and a woman is grateful for their largesse. My friend’s husband says that thanks to women ‘the most discriminated against person in this country now is the middle class white man’. He’s a twat.

But he’s not alone - mediocre men are suddenly having to up their game and they don’t like it.

What’s that saying - when you are used to benefitting from privilege, equality feels like discrimination.

@exPR - this absolutely. And I've heard the "you really don't want to be a white man today" theory, always said with a completely straight face and the assumption that I'll agree. It's MIND BLOWING.

I'm also increasingly not really actually interested in the Not All Men comments. Because while we can agree that not all men are rapists etc, the sad truth is that many many many men are biased against women, whether they realise it or not. You can hear it in the tone of voice they use when speaking with and about women, the things they choose to say when in men-only environments vs mixed environments etc.

And then, even more so, the vast bulk of men don't challenge the more obvious shit when it comes up. Either because they don't think it's their fight or because they don't think it's a problem or because they're just wankers. They hear about a job for which a woman is preferred and instead of saying to themselves, "well, I guess that role has been held by a man for the last 100 years so perhaps that's not just co-incidence but actually a case of some other issue?" they are outraged that they are being discriminated against.

They hear men "bantering" about women and even the men who wouldn't do that kind of banter themselves don't challenge it. In big corporates, they may be presented with evidence of how women are discriminated against in a multitude of ways but I've lost track of the number of times I've heard directly or indirectly that when processes are put in place to manage this the men do so only because they have to, never because they actually truly believe the issue needs to be fixed.

I have told the story on here and in RL about Dh getting into huge arguments with a group of male mates who liked to make misogynist and ridiculous comments. And every time, the response from other women is "WOW, that's amazing. I don't know any men who have done that." And it's really starting to piss me off now. And I get annoyed with DH sometimes because he doesn't get it all, and I'm really starting to realise that I have a husband who is sooooooo far ahead of most other men that it's almost unfair to expect even more from him.

If a women is too intoxicated she will be taken advantage of by SOME people

You know as well as I do that you mean some men.

And by saying that women need to take responsibility not to be raped when drunk you are saying that a drunk woman is at risk where some men are concerned.

Because some men can’t be trusted not to rape a vulnerable women.

Some men can’t be trusted not to take advantage.

Some men are predators and instead of expecting them to behave like decent human beings it’s up to women to police themselves and men.

Which is exactly what we are frustrated by and the reason this thread was started.

So are you a misandrist now too, or just someone speaking from personal, lived experience?

About this drunk issue. If the message was to everyone - "take care, being drunk can cause accidents / reduce inhibition / delay reactions / lead to you putting yourself in dangerous situations" - then fine. It would be no different from the lock your door type advice. And there are ads at christmas warning against drunk driving, for example, and they are fine because the warning is sensible and universal.

The reason it's so shit and sexist is that it's aimed at women and used to excuse men. You never even hear "men, don't get drunk, it could end up with you doing something you regret or harming yourself or someone else." Or of course "men you shouldn't rape people, here's why." The current prevailing attitude and "warnings" about women getting drunk are basically saying men can't control themselves so it's your fault if you get raped.

@ImAllOut

If someone's door was open I wouldn't rob them. If my husband or another man I was attracted to (or not in some cases) was drunk, I certainly wouldn't force myself on them. I'm not sure how it's a woman's responsibility not to get drunk because someone might rape her.

It's not, obviously, but think the lines get blurred as people often see anaglous scenarios.

Often people will say that you'd be asking for trouble if you walked into a rough part of town dripping with jewelry and expected not to get mugged, or left valuables on clear display in your car unattended. There's an element of due diligence naturally.

However, the elephant in the room is that going to a party or to a pub/club and getting drunk isn't comparable.

If a women is too intoxicated she will be taken advantage of by SOME people.

Get to fuck with this victim-blaming shit. And I speak as someone raped at the age of 15 by two men in once incident, and I was stone-cold sober (oh, and incidentally, wearing trousers. Just in case any other aspect of my dress or behaviour were the next things you were going to point out).

MEN should not rape women. It is offensive to anyone who has been the victim of such a revolting assault as I was to constantly assail our ears with the NAMALT defence, not least mitigate the revolting actions of these men by any aspect whatsoever of women's behaviour.

These men are the aggressors. It is, 100%, THEIR fault. NAMALT. But look at the statistics. The assailants are, almost exclusively, men.

[quote Coseynightin]@Russellbrandshair it is called taking personal responsibility. Women can go and drink as much as they like but when they are bladdered and have too much to drink the chances of something happening are a lot higher. Of course you can teach men not to rape but if the man is drunk as well there’s less chance of thinking straight. we do not and will never live in a utopian society.

Comparisons to robbing- do you leave your front door open when you are out? No why is that cos there are people that will take advantage. It is the same.[/quote]
Wtf is this shite.

I have gone out, got drunk many many times. Not once have I raped, groped or attacked a man or woman. No matter how pissed I was. It’s actually really bloody easy not to.

Men not thinking straight is the cause of rape now is it? Bloody hell. The actual lengths some people will go to to explain away the horrific behaviour of men is astounding.

@HerselfIndoors

About this drunk issue. If the message was to everyone - "take care, being drunk can cause accidents / reduce inhibition / delay reactions / lead to you putting yourself in dangerous situations" - then fine. It would be no different from the lock your door type advice. And there are ads at christmas warning against drunk driving, for example, and they are fine because the warning is sensible and universal.

The reason it's so shit and sexist is that it's aimed at women and used to excuse men. You never even hear "men, don't get drunk, it could end up with you doing something you regret or harming yourself or someone else." Or of course "men you shouldn't rape people, here's why." The current prevailing attitude and "warnings" about women getting drunk are basically saying men can't control themselves so it's your fault if you get raped.

Yes. I often struggle with the reality that being drunk does mean you can't protect yourself better and the fact that it shouldn't be like that. But you've nailed it here. It's the fact that it's consistently aimed at women only.

People are told not to drunk drive because they could hurt themselves AND others. So why can't we also tell men they shouldn't drink if it means they might hurt a woman by raping her? But no, it's all on us.

YANBU. I feel that women's rights have completely regressed. I actually have to stop thinking about it so much because it's so depressing

I agree @GlummyMcGlummerson. In the last few years the hate for women seems to have expanded hugely.

Yes. I was thinking about it all recently (and like others I sometimes feel so overwhelmed, especially with the trans agenda, that I have to have a mental break from it)

I realised that I have been thinking about feminism all wrong. I've always thought of it as a process, whereby we eventually reach a state of full equal rights and fair protections, and a cultural enlightenment where everyone understands that the sexes have equal value and should not be restrained by gender. I hadn't consciously spelt that out to myself, but I did assume it.

But actually, I think it's more like an everlasting struggle that ebbs and flows - there are successes and backlashes, and cultural change that appears to be progress (and is in some ways) but results in the misogyny being channelled in other ways. Throughout history a subset of women have struggled to attain fairness and to escape gender expectations, and done it in different ways - sometimes individually, sometimes as a class. But the forces that stop it from happening are always reborn.

Some men are predators and instead of expecting them to behave like decent human beings it’s up to women to police themselves and men.

How are you going to stop some men being sexual predators though?

Do you think education from a young age would stop it?
Do you think a ban on pornography would help (seems impossible to enforce)?

Real questions, not provocation btw.

I feel like even with education from a young age, some men will always be sexual predators.

Some of them just have no idea how to interact with women as people and therefore I assume they don't have any success as a result. Yet they blame women

The last man I went on a date with (met through OLD) met him in a public place for lunch, quite normal. Didn't hear from him for a couple of weeks (I wasn't that bothered) then he started messaging me about sex. Was I going to have sex with him and when? He knew I wanted it? I made an attempt to guide him away from the sex talk, saying it was off putting and too crude, only to be messaged back "does that mean you're willing to have sex with me?" Blocked him immediately. I had visions of my replies being used by the defence in a rape trial if I met him again!

Another man I didn't really know but was part of an online forum for a sports club. A friend organised a house part with food and I posted on the forum because I didnt drink, I could give anyone near me a lift there and back. This random guy responded saying he'd like a lift, but he lived in totally the opposite direction, and giving him a lift would have meant a massive detour for me. So I messaged him pleasantly to say sorry, but x can give you a lift as he lives near you.

The first guy behaved really oddly at the oadtyy, deliberately knocking against me and on one occasion causing me to spill my drink, and glaring at me angrily all night. This heaviour continued onto the sport itself, until I got fed up and deliberately stuck my foot out when he was brushing past me and tripped him up. He squared up to me (in public!) and said "Did you do that on purpose?". I glared back at him and said "Yes I fucking did". He backed off after that, but still glares at me THREE YEARS later, though he keeps his distance.

And I'm thinking potential rapists, the pair of them. No way would I be alone with either of them. Pay attention to your gut instinct!

There was a video on tik tok of a woman breastfeeding and the hatred in the comments was shocking... all men!

There are estimated to be about 300,000 paedophiles in the UK and most statistics over the years have estimated that about 95-98% are men. The rise in human trafficking and the increasingly easy access to horrific "pornographic" ie. abusive content is definitely making the situation a lot worse. There was an article recently in the New Yorker which was really awful to read and demonstrates the complete lack of morals many people have towards this situation, and it is primarily men buying into it (sorry to the NAMALT crowd) www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-rape-trafficking.html

In fact I've read that until relatively recent times (on an evolutionary scale) it can be seen in DBA that the majority of men did not pass on their DNA, with the implication the majority of men did not have regular sex; it was a small group of "alpha" men who impregnated the women and passed on their genes.

Meanwhile you have 50% of more of that population wired to want sex and to reproduce (the latter not usually being their primary objective obviously) ... It made me wonder if some of them have actually evolved to be sexually predatory and opportunistic as a result.

We can want humans to be thinking, ethical, empathetic creatures but the reality is we're partly that, and partly selfish, ruthless, base animals.

You could say men are clearly the most base - hence their vast dominance of crime figures for violent and sexual crimes; but is that just due to the differences of biology (most women have always and will continue to have sex and reproduce if they wish to; they may not do so with the security they'd prefer but they still do, most women are less physically string and aggressive, some women do unethical, unempathetic but they're unlikely to involve sexual or violent crimes because of biology).

Comparisons to robbing- do you leave your front door open when you are out? No why is that cos there are people that will take advantage. It is the same.

You are really fucking offensive. That is all.

sandals it's horrible to think about and I'm not one to think evolutionary biology explains all our behaviour, and certainly doesn't excuse it - but it does make sense that being sexually predatory would be selected for by evolution.

I have also read that there is evidence that rape is more likely to result in conception than normal sex (all other things being equal) :(

That's not me saying "women are as bad as men" at all ... They're clearly not.

Men are responsible for the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes, including valid sex abuse.

I'm just saying there's an element of evolutionary, animal, base behaviour there and I'd love to know how we change that.

We could try and it might reduce in a portion of the male population, but there will always be a portion you cant change.

So while "we should to have to police our own behaviour because they are sexual predators is true" it's also unrealistic; we should push for rights but we also unfortunately, have to keep in mind and teach females that there will always be male sexual predators .. and with predators you have mitigate vulnerabilities.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Comparisons to robbing- do you leave your front door open when you are out? No why is that cos there are people that will take advantage. It is the same.

You are really fucking offensive. That is all.

Don't you just live it when women are compared to front doors

It's the same for men too though. So why is it generally just aimed at women in regard to attack by men?

This is a bit of a derail. But my overwhelming emotion towards men, after 25 years of working alongside them, is mild contempt.

I've worked in a mega competitive industry for that time and have constantly had to be at least 50% better, more intelligent and harder working than all the men to be taken half as seriously. And still they've all been promoted and paid above me and in minor, deniable ways, they've all tried to shaft me. A lot of my former (male) contemporaries are now quite well known and very highly paid because their careers weren't derailed by having children (because, surprise! they had wives who made those sacrifices).

And yet all workplaces and companies are still designed in a way that benefits men and disadvantages women to a huge degree and makes it near impossible for a women with children to out-compete a man.

The whole structure of the workplace works on arbitrary rules that suit men's lives and makes things exponentially harder for women. The ridiculous insistence on 9 to 5 presenteeism and the fact that mentioning children or childcare in work is professional suicide etc. I work far longer hours than most of my male colleagues because I have to fit in caring responsibilities but yet they are still so unwilling to give an inch in order for me to fulfil these. And still I endlessly have to play nice and not be too aggressive and stroke their egos.

And without wanting to sound arrogant, I've still done better than most of them.

I'm sorry to say this because it will sound like misandry but I actually just feel superior to most of them on every level and I'm not prepared to pander to their insistence on creating the world in their image any more.

I think that the corrupting influence of power is a big factor, it's easier for men to have power and therefore easier for them to behave corruptly
The more power you have the greater your ability to evade accountability, can anyone withstand a 'ring of gyges' situation?