AIBU to have just about fucking had it with men?

[PurpleFeather]

I’m sure some of you will pile on me to tell me “it’s not all men”, but right now I don’t fucking care.

Woke up to read about more horrific sexual attacks on women along my favourite running route (there have been many lately).

Dealt with some horrific sexism in my work meeting today (a “hilarious” conversation between male members of staff as to why men are just so much smarter than women).

Ended the day by receiving an e-mail from someone I line manage about how she approached inappropriately by a customer today.

So we can’t run safely, we can’t do our jobs and be seen as “equal”, and we can’t serve customers without getting harassed.

Today I am so so so angry. I am done with making excuses for men, and giving them the benefit of the doubt (“He probably brushed past me by accident”, and “he was only joking really”, etc). I am just totally, utterly done with male privilege and male violence rearing it’s fucking ugly head in every area of my life.

Fuck the patriarchy!

The difference is we don't inflict violence on them
But why don't we?
Is it because mostly we couldn't get away with it, we know that we would come off worse?

Because @Yohoheaveho when women fight back we’re unreasonable, crazy, hysterical, bitches. And deserve it if we get hurt as a result. We should just shut up and let men do and say what they want and that’s how we stay safe. Under threat of violence.

I’m not a small person, either by height or...volume. And I’ve had occasions where if a man has pushed me out of his way or verbally abused me, I’ll give it straight back to him.

Every single time not only has the big brave man turned into a mouse but he’s been so confused and upset at being attacked by a crazy bitch for no reason. He’s just a man, going about his every day business, he’s done nothing wrong - all he’s done is elbow a woman out of his way, because he’s too busy to move round her. Or called a woman a stupid C* or bitch for daring to exist in a way he doesn’t find pleasing. That’s no reason for a horrible woman to do the same to him!

And don’t get me started on the ones who, if you step in to stop them harassing often much younger and clearly uncomfortable women, rant and rave at you for ruining their chances.

Yes Barry, a 17 year old, who is too scared or too polite to move away from you, a 45 year old divorced mess with food stains on your tie, would totally have given you her number were it not for horrible old me, who is just jealous I can’t bag a man like you. How will I live without the sexual validation of a football bore with halitosis.

WOMEN ARE NOT HOUSES
This is the heart of the matter, a house is a possession an asset that you own and control.
Primarily men see women as assets and possessions, things which are useful to them, which can be put to work in service of their aims and objectives, that is why they seek to dominate and control us.

@MoonPomme

Thanks exPR. I probably do need to speak to someone. Im feeling a lot of guilt and shame about it. I did consent so I'm not really sure what it was just that I feel awful about it and that I never want to be anywhere near him ever again. He contacted me again this week so thats dragged it up again. I won't be reporting it. I know there is no point.

You consented because that ensured your safety. If you’d been mugged at knife point and handed your phone over without kicking off you wouldn’t say you hadn’t been mugged because you didn’t fight. You’d say you did what you needed to come out of that situation safely but you were still mugged.

Your guilt and shame comes from the narrative we’ve all been fed that it’s only rape if it’s a stranger. It’s only rape if you fight and kick and scream the whole way through.
It’s not rape if you let him. It’s not rape even if you don’t want it. It’s not rape if,if,if.

That man is scum.

Can you cut contact with him?

@MoonPomme I'm so incredibly sorry. What an awful experience.

Can you speak to rape crisis? They can help you address your feelings about the matter.

The decision as to whether or not to report is yours and yours alone. You do not bear any responsibility for his actions; this belongs entirely to him.

As to the victim-blaming handmaiden/s on this thread, they really don't merit any further response. They disgust me.

That’s perfectly put @HerselfIndoors!

For so long men have assumed what makes them superior is being men, not the advantages they have from a system they rigged to their own benefit.

Yes Barry, a 17 year old, who is too scared or too polite to move away from you, a 45 year old divorced mess with food stains on your tie, would totally have given you her number were it not for horrible old me, who is just jealous I can’t bag a man like you. How will I live without the sexual validation of a football bore with halitosis.

This is what I found so bizarre when the Harvey Weinstein thing first came out. There were a few famous men of the George Clooney/Brad Pitt type who came out with comments like, "look, we knew Harvey was a bit embarassing and tended to hit on much younger women but we didn't realise how bad it is" and I kept screaming at the newspaper/social media post, "But FFS, did you really think a fat 50 year old man was genuinely int he slightest bit attractive to these young women? Why the fuck weren't you going over and telling him to stop?!!! were you genuinely SOOO clueless that you thought they were sticking around to chat to him because they were enjoying his attention!?"

Ive cut contact with him.
I blocked him straight after but he text me from a different number. Mostly making excuses for himself.
I told him to fuck off and get help.
I doubt I'll hear from him again now.
The scary thing is he looks normal.
Hes educated, a teacher, charming, handsome.
Im sure his mother and sisters would say hes lovely and namalt.
But he is like that.

@MoonPomme

Ive recently had a horrible experience. He didn't rape me but I was scared that he might. So I went along with it. As the least risky option to me. In a situation I couldn't easily get out of with a man who had showed himself to be quite sick and probably dangerous. I knew, it crossed my mind, that if I struggled and he raped me, even violently, he would get away with it. This was someone I've known a long time and trusted. I doubt he thinks he did anything wrong at all. Would he care even if he did know? Who's gonna stop him from scaring and hurting women?

MoonPomme, I'm sorry you've had this experience. And horrified to hear he's still contacting you. Cut contact in whatever way works for you. You can just block him or you can send him a message telling him what you think, it doesn't matter. But you don't have to placate him any more.

And agree with PPs, you're struggling to get over this so you absolutely should seek some help and not feel bad or guilty or ashamed for doing so.

@MoonPomme

Ive cut contact with him. I blocked him straight after but he text me from a different number. Mostly making excuses for himself. I told him to fuck off and get help. I doubt I'll hear from him again now. The scary thing is he looks normal. Hes educated, a teacher, charming, handsome. Im sure his mother and sisters would say hes lovely and namalt. But he is like that.

Sorry, we cross posted. Awful awful man. Best case, he uses this experience as an opportunity to really think about his behaviour. But either way, it's not your responsibility.

I had a sort of similar experience as a student but less severe - I managed to get away with no actual sex or penetration. The only good thing that came out of it is that I think the man involved actually did experience a wake up call. Certainly, he wrote me a letter to apologise (with, from memory, no excuses) and when I bumped into him years and years later he was respectful, polite, and kept his distance in a way that told me he fully understood that my instinctive reaction was to be terrified of him (and he left asap). I'd like to think it has informed how he may have behaved subsequently. But I don't know.

@MoonPomme - he knows what he did was wrong but is hoping you’ll say it’s fine so he doesn’t have to stop thinking of himself as one of the ‘good’ guys.

You owe him nothing. If he contacts you again tell him he can make his excuses to the police.

There are no excuses. You are not to blame for any of this.

I 100% wont be reporting.
There's no point and it wont help me.
Ive slept with him with full consent lots of times before, I've known him a long time.
The best I can do now is keep away from him.
I'll speak to someone.
Thank you for the support, it means a lot.

YANBU two dds, one is sn. I dread what life will be like when they are adults.

No one is saying women are possessions.

Women are aggressive as well and cause trauma for men and this does not get widely reported

@SpaceOp I think the whole thing with Weinstein and the men that didn’t step in is complicated.

There is a casting couch scene for straight men too which is just as predatory, exploitative and traumatic and some may have not wanted to step forward in case their own stories came out.

The more common reason is the attitude that powerful men are untouchable so why would I get my hands dirty for some stupid women who clearly want to sleep with him. And maybe one day when I’m rich and powerful too, I’ll get to have my pick of all the pretty girls and I won’t want anyone sticking their noses in.

Have you seen the latest Hollywood Reporter article on Johnny Depp? It is jaw dropping - he is not only very clearly an abuser but deeply deeply misogynistic. He called/texted literally every power player in Hollywood asking them to help destroy Amber Heard, calling her a whore, cum guzzler, fish market and bragging about how he can get nice young Russian ‘pieces’ now instead. He thought as a powerful man that it was his right to do that. And that no one would find it offensive or refuse him.

This behaviour does not pop up over night so there has clearly been a cover up for a long time. Many years ago Ricky Gervias said if people knew what Depp was really like, no one would work for him and he was called bitter. He was telling the truth.

And if you look at who is publicly attacking Amber Heard and blaming her for Depp being dropped from the latest Fantastic Beasts films, it is women. Young girls, young women, mothers, middle aged women. That’s how successful the powerful man narrative is.

@Coseynightin

No one is saying women are possessions.

Women are aggressive as well and cause trauma for men and this does not get widely reported

It's a lot less fucking likely for a woman to inflict anywhere near as much damage on a man. The prison population is 94% male. There's a reason for that. Posts like this make me so fucking angry.

Raped and sexual offences don't get reported either. That's the real tragedy in this situation.

If he contacts me again I might report him for harassment.
I doubt he will but I obviously dont know him as well as I thought I did.
Ive told him in no uncertain terms to leave me alone.
Anyway, thanks again for the support, it really means so much, at first I wondered if I was overreacting or I'd got it wrong somehow. I'm sure you can imagine.
So it helps.
I dont want to hijack the thread.
Lets get back to worrying about poor mens feelings shall we.

@Coseynightin

No one is saying women are possessions.

Women are aggressive as well and cause trauma for men and this does not get widely reported

@Coseynightin The men will be along shortly with your best handmaiden trophy for pointing out that the significantly more widespread harm, aggression and trauma that men cause to women is irrelevant as women also do the same, even if the numbers are tiny in comparison.

You are every bit as bad as the men you are so keen to defend.

You are part of the problem.

And that doesn’t even protect you from any of it.
That’s the sad and frustrating thing.

To your point here though - are many 'decent' men with families and good jobs also robbing others or beating up other men away from others either? No, because they either see it at morally repugnant or likely to lead to bad consequences, yet rape is more acceptable.

That wasn't my point.

You're making the point that rape is more acceptable, that's your point not mine.

My point was that whatever we try to do, there have always been and always will be (even if we try everything we think might reduce it) men who are sexual predators, and saying they shouldn't exist or saying women shouldn't have to consider they exist if they do things that increase their vulnerability to them ... is pointless.

Those men know you are physically less capable of fighting then off if they sexually assault you or rape you when you're drunk, they know you're less likely to report it, they know the police are less likely to prosecute it, they know you're less likely to be successful if they do prosecute it, they know you're less generally likely to be believed etc etc. Saying that shouldn't be the case and women should be able to get drunk in the same way as men; doesn't stop it from being the case.

(Incidentally men I know who get habitually drunk (and tend separate from their friends) have experienced violent assault & robbery - just not sexual assault. Should they never be advised to watch their drinking and surroundings, is that victim blaming).

@CoronaBollox I always thought I would have daughters. Never crossed my mind I wouldn't but you know what? When I found out I was having a son I just thought 'thank goodness he won't have to deal with being a woman' and I never even saw it coming.

As to the related but separate point that rape is more "acceptable" than assault/battery ... What are the solutions to that?

Education?
Sentencing?
??

And maybe one day when I’m rich and powerful too, I’ll get to have my pick of all the pretty girls and I won’t want anyone sticking their noses in
I suspect this is the horrible truth, at some level they hope to benefit from the culture that allows men to get away with these things that's why they don't call it out:(

Yes Barry, a 17 year old, who is too scared or too polite to move away from you, a 45 year old divorced mess with food stains on your tie, would totally have given you her number were it not for horrible old me, who is just jealous I can’t bag a man like you. How will I live without the sexual validation of a football bore with halitosis.

Nail on the head.

Another slight derail here, but for all the reasons discussed her and more I have found myself actively hoping that my 9 year old daughter will turn out to be gay.

I'm fully aware that a) being gay comes with its own challenges and can be difficult due to discrimination in our society and b) being gay doesn't protect women from sexual violence or discrimination -- in fact it may exacerbate these.

But a gay woman is far less likely to have her career derailed by a man and his insistence on her becoming a domestic handmaiden (because if she does have kids at all she will have them with another woman who is far more likely to understand the need for division of labour that is equitable.)

And a gay woman is less likely to waste years of emotional time and damage her self esteem internalising shit that men dump on her in order to feel better about themselves. If I think of the ways in which my life has been limited, literally and emotionally, but having to pander to the emotional needs of a man based purely on the fact that he considered himself innately superior to me, it still makes my blood boil.

Am I being naïve in thinking we could ever get to a place where a woman could expect a committed relationship with a man which doesn't have these limiting factors?

@Coseynightin

Men kill and abuse more men than they do women on a daily basis.

Are you scared of getting into a car? I think the hyperbole in this thread is dangerous.

Dangerous to whom? The men who will lose their power to abuse if women keep calling them out on it?

Can’t be dangerous to women, can it? More dangerous than two of us every week being murdered by ‘partners’?

Or dangerous to the romantic fantasy fed to women to encourage them to live their lives in service to the hero?
Fuck that.

thepeopleversuswork I'm married to a man but previously had relationships with women. I found those relationships to be more emotionally draining at times than my marriage, but there are times now where I've wondered what my life would be like if I'd stayed with a woman in terms of children and decisions we make together. My mum was always relieved I wasn't going to come home pregnant as a teenager at least but I did experience quite a bit of homophobia from family, though not so much the wider population.

I do feel the same as you about my daughters, and so does my husband. He says he knows what a lot of his friends are like (and what he was like as a teenager apparently) and would much rather our daughters bring home girlfriends. He works in a male dominated industry and says some of his colleagues talk about their wives as if they hate them.