To have no time for ‘gender disappointment’

[Dinosaur19]

Friend is having her first baby boy. Is ‘devastated’ as she ‘always wanted a girl’. AIBU to not understand this type of disappointment? Surely when you try for a baby you know that the odds are 50/50 and you should accept that or don’t have bloody kids. I have 2 DS so this pisses me off slightly.

Preference = fine
Devastation = first world problem

I don't think its always about people who want princess dresses.

I hoped on some level for a girl - not to only have a girl, I would have been delighted either way with the first child but I did hope to have a girl at one stage. And now I have a girl, I just want a second child and don't mind if they're male or female.

But the main reason for that isn't about getting her dressed in dresses, she has mostly worn hand-me-downs from friends or clothes I consciously buy knowing they can be handed down regardless of whether next child is a boy or a girl. I have really tried to get gender neutral clothes and games and toys and avoid a world of pink plastic. Its more that I've been through the experience of puberty, and now childbirth, I am horrified by our patriarchal world, porn and social media and all the pressures put on teenagers and feel I could at least make a decent shot at guiding another girl through that but wouldn't really know where to start with a boy. That being said, I would have learned.

I have a friend with three sons and she says the same: on her third, she found out before he was born and had a wobble. Its not that she doesn't love and adore them, and again she would be the last person to impose gender norms, her sons are all quite creative and arty and there's no stereotype of assuming they'll all love sports. But there is a sense of shared experience among women and mothers and daughters that you can't entirely replicate.

I don't understand women like your friend OP, but I don't think its fair to say that everyone who has even a tiny preference is inexplicable and harbouring deep rooted prejudice. I know a few women who have had a tiny wobble (on their second or third child) and then focused on loving their children and thinking how much fun it will be for their existing child to have another brother.

I blame sex scans, tbh. We didn’t have this nonsense when you didn’t find out what it was until it was born

We did actually. I had mine well before the advent of scans. I wanted a girl and had an initial stab of disappointment when I was handed my boy. It lasted all of two minutes when I held him. I know lots of women my age who felt the same. My dad was apparently horribly disappointed when I turned out to be a girl.

A child’s perspective here. I’m an only child, girl. My parents very much wanted a boy, and I became aware of their disappointment as I grew up, as often happens. It was also obvious in many ways that they were still secretly (or not so secretly) hankering after a son - clothing choices as I grew up, pushing me to be a tomboy, which I’m not, etc. The “we wanted a boy” thing was said as a bit of a joke but it remained serious deep down. It stung, a lot. I was lucky that it helped me in many ways, because I developed a “I am who I am, take it or leave it” attitude and I’m happy abc proud of being a woman. But it resulted in a lot of difficulties in our relationships. Not something I’d recommend.

@TableFlowerss

Preference = fine Devastation = first world problem

I agree.

I don't actually judge people who genuinely had a preference in their head, were a little disappointed and moved on.

Devastated is way OTT though.

I was never upset or disappointed to have a boy. I was nervous to have a boy because everyone in my family, nieces etc... Are all girls so don't really have any 'experience' but I wasn't disappointed.

I have a friend who's husband has 3 boys already and I know she was secretly hoping for a girl and was a little disappointed when she found out they were having a boy. Again though, she got over it and loves her son more than anything so I don't judge. I think in her mind she just wanted to share something with her husband that he didn't already have which I can understand even if it doesn't make entire sense to someone else.

And like PPs, I can also understand someone having a preference if they already have children of one sex. So you have two boys and hope for a girl this time or whatever.

So long as you move on and love your baby unconditionally which I'm sure 99.99999999% of people who experience this do then I don't judge it.

But yeah, devastated is way too much.

This is exactly why I don’t like people finding out the sex of the baby before it’s born. There are always people who want what they are not having!
If you don’t know the sex, then when the baby is born and the midwife hands it to you and tells you the sex, or asks you to look - well there is absolutely no feeling like it. A very precious moment. And in that moment you do not care what the sex is.

Many people have depression due to gender disappointment. wtf does mental health always have to be brought in to justify any kind of abhorrent view?

If someone is so devastated that they are depressed due to not having the child they wanted then they likely already had serious mental health problems.

And if someone is so set on having a boy or girl specifically then frankly they have no place having children.

My mum used to work in a dr’s surgery, they had a few patients in who wanted scans to see if they were having boys or girls, and if they were having girls they wanted the pregnancies terminated - on the NHS. They were from whichever culture it is where this practice is commonplace.

I agree with PPs as well that of course Mumsnet is mainly people wanting baby girls. We are mainly women here I imagine.

I don't think it's all that surprising that a lot of women would imagine having female children.

If you went onto a forum dominated by male posters I'm sure it would be the opposite.

I'd ask you why you care so much?

I care because it is all tied up with gender stereotypes and expectations.

Even before mine were born- if it kicked, ooh, it must be a boy, a little footballer! Or ooh, it kicked, must be a girl giving you a hard time already!

iME gender disappointment is a consequence of gender stereotypes. People imagine little gitls looking pretty and helping mummy around the house, while the dirty greedy boys fight each other, play outside and eat everything in the house.

If we stopped with all this “boy” and “girl” crap and started treating kids like humans with a wider range of likes and interests, maybe people could picture themselves shopping with a boy or watching footy with a girl.

I also think many women reject boys as they buy into the “man is a son until they take a wife” thing. They envisage their boys leaving home, getting married and focussing on wife and family. So they invest more in girls who are expected to stay close, provide grandchildren etc. I’m willing to bet most parents, would move closer to a girl to help with grandchildren, where they wouldn’t for a boy, if they had one of each...

There are so many more nice girl names out there, but, apart from that, preggers pal should embrace that life is sending her a healthy baby. Who will, no doubt, make her very happy if she rids herself of her preconceptions, pun intended, about boys.

I'd ask you why you care so much

@TaraRhu maybe because it's really fucking offensive to sympathise with mothers of boys for having them, to suggest that they try again for a girl, to ask them for reassurance that having two boys wont ruin your life... And the same for mothers of girls of course.

I don't understand why it annoys people so much that people might have a preference for boy or girl.
The same way as some people like to live in a city and others in the countryside.
Or some people prefer dogs and other cats (and other dislike both).
Etc

But oh no, say you hope for a girl and people will be annoyed, tell you she will be a tomboy, won't like shopping and will not be close to you. She will not have children, or if she will she won't get immensely closer to you when they are little, no no, she will do that with her MIL of course. All proven by anecdotical evidence of course.
...
Completely ignoring the fact that most girls/women are not tomboys, are close to their mothers, like to go shopping, etc.

One last point. On a lot of trans threads we make mention of what it means to "be a woman". Well, isn't a common reason for wanting a girl the fact that you will share this experience of being a woman with her? Isn't this alone a reason for having a preference?

I’ve never experienced gender disappointment but can people really not conceive of the idea that this is a symptom of a mental health issue? Some MH symptoms are widely accepted, others are taboo and this is one of the latter.

I personally don’t think humans are supposed to know the sex of their baby during pregnancy and that this is part of the cause of gender disappointment. When I was pregnant I was on a forum with a lot of Americans, many of whom had NIPT and found out very early and the amount of women who had gender disappointment was much higher than I’ve otherwise seen. Some people are severely affected by pregnancy hormones and I think that coupled with finding out something you’re not supposed to find out really is a bad combination for some.

There are so many more nice girl names out there

God, I agree with this though.

We had loads of girls names on our list. We really struggled to even find just a few boys names that we liked.

@happymummy12345 maybe the way to achieve that is to keep your thoughts and feelings to yourself rather than parade them in public asking for understanding and sympathy for your great disappointment?

I strongly disagree with this. Should Mumsnet be deleted because women who can’t have children might read it and be upset? After all, many of the threads are about fairly trivial issues, such as Christmas present dilemmas, teenagers being rude, disputed nursery charges etc.

Maybe there should be a separate branch for gender disappointment threads, but it’s not fair to say that MNers are only allowed to talk about serious problems. And anyway, some very serious problems start off as seemingly trivial niggles.

Poor little boy. She can pass him to me, Iittle boys are so much fun.

I don't get the "I wouldn't know where to start with..." comments. With a newborn of either sex, the starting place is the same - a needy infant. You then learn over time about that child specifically.

This idea that their sex somehow gives a better starting place than the individual is part of the issue. It's at times medically and socially relevant, but I don't get why their sex should be a conscious starting place at all for parenting.

We had loads of girls names on our list. We really struggled to even find just a few boys names that we liked.

Totally. When I found out I was having twins I just knew it was two boys and we didn’t have any boys names. Didn’t pick any until they were born!

@user1481840227, if its not about the child being born with the wrong biological features because some are deluded that certain biology means certain personality traits, then what is it about?

I understand that sometimes life turns out to be not the way we want, including not having children of the gender we prefered. However, I find it rude and disrespectful to share the "devastation" with others because there are people around who can't have children at all, and parents of "unwanted" gender feel really uncomfortable hearing about the "disappointment". I can understand the feeling of sadness, I truly do. I just feel like people have to deal with emotional issues that lead to such pronounced gender preference before trying for children rather than spreading their "devastation"

[quote Cattenberg]**@happymummy12345 maybe the way to achieve that is to keep your thoughts and feelings to yourself rather than parade them in public asking for understanding and sympathy for your great disappointment?

I strongly disagree with this. Should Mumsnet be deleted because women who can’t have children might read it and be upset? After all, many of the threads are about fairly trivial issues, such as Christmas present dilemmas, teenagers being rude, disputed nursery charges etc.

Maybe there should be a separate branch for gender disappointment threads, but it’s not fair to say that MNers are only allowed to talk about serious problems. And anyway, some very serious problems start off as seemingly trivial niggles.[/quote]
I agree on a forum like this. We can't censor everything.

But, speaking as someone who did experience fertility issues and then finally was successful after many many years, I certainly do try and not having conversations like this face to face with people in case.

The same with people asking 'when are you having kids' and so on, I wouldn't ask that nor would I complain about having a healthy baby to someone's face because it wasn't my preferred gender.

@bluebluezoo

I'd ask you why you care so much?

I care because it is all tied up with gender stereotypes and expectations.

Even before mine were born- if it kicked, ooh, it must be a boy, a little footballer! Or ooh, it kicked, must be a girl giving you a hard time already!

iME gender disappointment is a consequence of gender stereotypes. People imagine little gitls looking pretty and helping mummy around the house, while the dirty greedy boys fight each other, play outside and eat everything in the house.

If we stopped with all this “boy” and “girl” crap and started treating kids like humans with a wider range of likes and interests, maybe people could picture themselves shopping with a boy or watching footy with a girl.

I also think many women reject boys as they buy into the “man is a son until they take a wife” thing. They envisage their boys leaving home, getting married and focussing on wife and family. So they invest more in girls who are expected to stay close, provide grandchildren etc. I’m willing to bet most parents, would move closer to a girl to help with grandchildren, where they wouldn’t for a boy, if they had one of each...

Aside from the issue of antenatal and postnatal depression manifesting as gender disappointment, I whole-heartedly agree with @bluebluezoo. It's all so bound up with the expectation of what a boy/girl will be like, i.e. gender stereotypes. It's so sad that we already place limitations on what we think either gender can do/will be like before they're even born.

One last point. On a lot of trans threads we make mention of what it means to "be a woman". Well, isn't a common reason for wanting a girl the fact that you will share this experience of being a woman with her? Isn't this alone a reason for having a preference?

Exactly that @NoSleepInTheHeat. You’ve summed up perfectly why I wanted a girl.

Completely ignoring the fact that most girls/women are not tomboys, are close to their mothers, like to go shopping, etc

I’m not even a “tomboy”. I’m just a girl whose idea of trawling makeup counters and fireplace shops on a saturday afternoon is hell.

But why do we have that expectation?

The reason my mum and I aren’t close is because I don’t like the same things she does. That happens to be feminine things like shopping, clothes, hair, nails, being houseproud etc.

But instead of finding things we both enjoyed to do together, she tried to force me into doing the “girly” stuff she thought I should be interested in, solely because I’m also female.

Why do girls (and boys) have to subscribe to the binary of stereotypes? Especially if it’s just to please their parents.

Why can’t parents just get to know their kids and enjoy spending time together doing stuff they like?

Yeah, and it's also pretty rude when your friend tells you they've bought a house in the countryside and you reply with "Oh no, I'd be devastated if I had to live somewhere so boring."