To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

Left-handed people should simply do the same as right-handed people but mirrored. It's unreasonable to expect them to use the cutlery in the same hand as right-handed people. However they should still use the correct cutlery for each course, etc. IMO.

Left-handed people should simply do the same as right-handed people but mirrored
Or just use cutlery correctly in the correct hands as I and my parents do.

@DappledThings

Left-handed people should simply do the same as right-handed people but mirrored Or just use cutlery correctly in the correct hands as I and my parents do.

Genuinely curious - do you and your parents also insist on writing with your right hands and if not, what is the difference?

I can honestly say I have never, not once in my life, noticed how someone else holds their cutlery and cannot imagine a scenario in which I would be bothered about it.

Chew with your mouth closed, don't talk with your mouth full, don't make a mess, say please and thank you, beyond that who gives a fuck?

Genuinely curious - do you and your parents also insist on writing with your right hands and if not, what is the difference?
No. Because cutlery is not so much about fine motor skills as writing is. I couldn't write legibly with my right hand if I tried.

Some people prefer to use their cutlery the wrong way round. That's fine, I know more than one right-handed person who uses it the wrong the way round. I just hate it being branded as the "left-handed" way.

I think it's appalling that we're here in 2020 and people still think that using cutlery in a way that comes naturally to left handed people is wrong. Callous, unkind, snobbish.

@DappledThings

Genuinely curious - do you and your parents also insist on writing with your right hands and if not, what is the difference? No. Because cutlery is not so much about fine motor skills as writing is. I couldn't write legibly with my right hand if I tried.

Some people prefer to use their cutlery the wrong way round. That's fine, I know more than one right-handed person who uses it the wrong the way round. I just hate it being branded as the "left-handed" way.

But you clearly don't think it is fine do you, as your continued use of the word 'wrong' shows. If you and your parents are able to eat comfortably right handed, great, good for you, but as several other left handed posters have stated for them it would be difficult if not impossible, just as writing with your right hand would be for you.

And really, what does it matter? Why is knife in right hand the "correct" way? How does it impact on someone else's enjoyment of their meal in any way, shape or form?

Why would anyone make a left-handed child learn to use cutlery in the right-handed way, imo thats pretty cruel.

Because cutlery is not so much about fine motor skills as writing is.

I'll mention that to ds's Occupational therapist next time he's practicing using cutlery by cutting playdoh!

People who think all this guff isn't about class are kidding themselves

My left-handed daughter eats with the cutlery the traditional way round because when she first started using a knife and fork it didn't occur to me (right-handed) that she might want them the other way round. She therefore became used to doing it the normal way.

It took me an embarrassingly long time to realise that she might do a better job of cutting things out if I gave her a pair of left-handed scissors and therefore she is also capable of using scissors right-handed.

Or just use cutlery correctly in the correct hands as I and my parents do.
'My parents and I do', surely.
I mean if we're going to get judgey about people holding cutlery based on their dominant hands...

Anyone who judges people for 'back to front' cutlery useage when all other table manners are perfect is an arsehole as far as I am concern.

I eat 'back to front' because I have a very unstable joint in my left index finger and to eat with my fork in that hand is agony.

As long as you use them correctly it doesn't matter and this is a hill I am willing to die on!

@thebabessavedme

Why would anyone make a left-handed child learn to use cutlery in the right-handed way, imo thats pretty cruel.

I was never "made to". I just did. I copied what my left-handed parents do. Never occurred to any of us to do it the wrong way round.

BUT WHY IS IT BAD TABLE MANNERS TO HOLD YOUR KNIFE IN YOUR LEFT HAND?

I'm fairly sure this has something to do with not holding a knife (i.e. weapon) in your sword hand, from the days when people might stab one another across the table.

Personally I think it's dated and you should be able to use either hand. Left-handed DH uses the conventional hands for knife and fork and it doesn't seem to trouble him, but he was brought up in an era with very strict table manners.

I feel very sorry for some I have met that have wound themselves up in knots over it
But they are because of people like the OP who think they are entitled to judge.

Like you, I wouldn't judge someone over the fork and knife they use, and the ketchup thing would actually make me smile.

I am much more likely to judge how people talk to staff with the worse culprit often the same who judge table manners.

As for learning, we are lucky to live in the area of internet. It takes a 10mns video to learn!

But you clearly don't think it is fine do you, as your continued use of the word 'wrong' shows. If you and your parents are able to eat comfortably right handed, great, good for you, but as several other left handed posters have stated for them it would be difficult if not impossible, just as writing with your right hand would be for you.
People can do things wrong and it still be fine! I'm not bothered if anyone chooses to had their cutlery the wrong way round for whatever reason, it's noticeable to me but it's up to them.

DD is a bit young to know for sure but shows signs of being left-handed. We will continue to show her how to hold cutlery same as we have done for DS. If she insists that she has to use it the wrong way round then that will be up to her but I'm not going to randomly suggest it.

My main beef is with it being called the left-handed way. Some left-handed people prefer it, some people prefer it for other reasons. Doesn't make it the left-handed way.

I agree with you OP and am teaching my kids the same. I hate poor table manners

I'm fairly sure this has something to do with not holding a knife (i.e. weapon) in your sword hand, from the days when people might stab one another across the table.

Such antiquated reasons. I'm sure the not cutting your roll with the knife originates from something like when the knives used at the table were the same ones used to slay the animals being eaten. Not so much of a problem these days in fine dining circles!

Because cutlery is not so much about fine motor skills as writing is. I couldn't write legibly with my right hand if I tried
This is the most laughable thing I've read in quite some time! If that's the case, why are 12 months old babies not able to cut their food yet?

Left-handers were made to use their right hand to write and they managed fine. It was stopped because it was considered unnecessary and pointless.

It's amazing that some people would still think that left handers should use their fork and knife as right handers just because of some old fashion views on what good manners are.

If there is motor skills involved, I wonder why they make scissors for left handers!

I think you’re getting a hard time here OP and I don’t know why.

I don’t think OP is over-obsessed with using the exact right fork or whatever but would like her children to be able to not feel self conscious about their table manners in adulthood. It really is easier if you know how to eat properly. It’s not about class, it’s about not being gross. Mouth closed, not stuffing loads of food in, elbows off table, not mushing food up on plate. It’s about making them pleasant company. If you really need to swap hands for cutlery then I doubt anyone would really notice as long as everything was fine. DH has a friend who licks his knife after every mouthful and I just find it revolting.

People can do things wrong and it still be fine!
Wrong is never fine.

This is the most laughable thing I've read in quite some time! If that's the case, why are 12 months old babies not able to cut their food yet?
I said not so much about fine motor skills as writing, not not at all. Writing is a much finer movement than gripping and cutting surely?

It's amazing that some people would still think that left handers should use their fork and knife as right handers
It's amazing that some people would still think that left handers in general have difficulty in using cutlery correctly any more than right handers and continue to lump us in as one homogenous group.

@DappledThings

But you still haven't really answered as to why you think knife in left hand is wrong. What is it about it that makes it wrong?

You are not being unreasonable about using a knives and fork, people do judge and it will put your Dchildren at a disadvantage in later life. I don't like to see ketchup all over a meal but both my husband and son do just that and I've learned to pick my battles and ignore it , just .

It's amazing that some people would still think that left handers in general have difficulty in using cutlery correctly any more than right handers and continue to lump us in as one homogenous group
So many things were deemed 'correct' centuries ago and are now seen as redundant at best, innappropriate at worse.

Why has it been accepted that there is nothing wrong with writing with ones left hand but it is still incorrect to not use your cutlery in the way that comes naturally. Time to move away from old fashioned, snob view of the world.

[quote OrionNebula]@DappledThings

But you still haven't really answered as to why you think knife in left hand is wrong. What is it about it that makes it wrong? [/quote]
Convention.Which is enough for me for it to be wrong. Which I am perfectly happy to own maybe old-fashioned, illogical, immaterial, snobbish and anything else! If I were unable to use my fork in my left hand I would still consider it the wrong way round but be happy with my decision to do it incorrectly if it was easier.

One of the quirks of my own left-handedness is having to use my left hand to insert/swipe tickets at barriers. Which requires an awkward cross body movement and is inefficient. So I'd call that wrong as well but it works for me. On the other hand (pun obviously intended) I consider it a significant advantage in driving. I love that the gear stick is on the left.