To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

Not explicitly, but what to do with sauces, yes, depending on what they came in. Dipping pots, bottles, gravy boats

And I’m guessing the formal occasions she was preparing you for did not feature squeezy bottles in the middle of tables?

I’m all for the kind of training you describe, but context is very important. I see no reason for making a big issue over ketchup usage, when what the OP is describing would only take place in very relaxed establishments among friends.

I don't care about people holding their knife in their left hand, but I do think good table manners are important. In fact, OP, you've reminded me when I started school there were kids who piled the salt in one corner of their plate and dipped their chips into it. Surely salt can be sprinkled, or have I been doing it wrong my whole life?

@TheKeatingFive

Not explicitly, but what to do with sauces, yes, depending on what they came in. Dipping pots, bottles, gravy boats

And I’m guessing the formal occasions she was preparing you for did not feature squeezy bottles in the middle of tables?

I’m all for the kind of training you describe, but context is very important. I see no reason for making a big issue over ketchup usage, when what the OP is describing would only take place in very relaxed establishments among friends.

Absolutely – your point is pretty much what I was getting at when I said:

I very, very rarely have to do any of those things, AND it feels like a lovely gift from her to know that when I am in those situations, I'm equipped to manage them confidently and gracefully.

But I'm not sure OP said she was making a big deal over it, did she?

In her first post she says:

I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting) Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place

That doesn't seem like a making a big deal to me. Or did I miss something further down the thread?

Wow people must really judge me for how I use my knife and fork! I'm right handed but apparently use my knife and fork the "wrong" way round

As long as your children are well mannered and polite, does it really matter how they use ketchup?

Coming from America where we use cutlery differently to the U.K., I made the decision to switch to the U.K.-based ‘fork prongs down and in the left hand, knife in the right hand.’ It felt more natural anyway because I’m left handed. Sure enough, my Fil couldn’t help himself publicly noticing and commenting at a large family dinner. I like the A, B, C mentioned by a pp. Eating burgers in McDonald’s is a different situation than having Sunday lunch the grandparents.

I agreed with teaching table manners and also think ABC levels make sense.

Lots of table manners are about being considerate of your fellow guest i.e. chewing with mouth closed and not saving your knife around.

I hate speaking with mouth full too, turns my stomach makes me feel sick

I don't particularly care how people eat ketchup but do think it's weird to pour what is basically sugar all over savoury food. Chips in paper obv different story.

Sorry @LolaSmiles,

“Oh I see, parents who don't follow a very long list of rules must be writing their children off and aren't nearly as aspirational enough. “

That wasn’t what I meant. It’s not hard to teach them to display good manners, which might save them embarrassment later, is what I was getting at. And btw, it’s not bad manners to use cutlery left-handedly, either😀

Agree with what thebabessavedme said

But I'm not sure OP said she was making a big deal over it, did she?

Well it was enough of a big deal that she entered in to an argument with her DH. It's in the very first line of her post.

Well it was enough of a big deal that she entered in to an argument with her DH.

And then started a thread on AIBU

I didn’t vote because I think Yabu about the ketchup but yanbu about manners in general. I agree it’s important to know proper table manners even if you don’t necessarily use them all at home every day. I am left handed and at home I use my cutlery the wrong way round but elsewhere I use it the right way round, for example. Whichever hand I hold it in, I hold my knife properly though - that’s a particular bugbear of mine.

@midnightstar66

But I'm not sure OP said she was making a big deal over it, did she?

Well it was enough of a big deal that she entered in to an argument with her DH. It's in the very first line of her post.

Well yes, and then goes on to say that the ketchup conversation was just the final straw of a bigger issue.

Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue

I agree it's not the most clearly worded post and perhaps the AIBU vote should have been differently put together, but I can see where she's coming from.

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.
I wouldn't give much for your chances of getting ketchup when dining with the Queen.
Ketchup is for use with over-salty junk food.

Ketchup isn't anything to do with table manners, it is a personal preference. I always have a blob to dip my chips in because that is how I like it, but squirt all over meat & potato pie so that it mixes in with the gravy again personal preference. As long as your dc are using their cutlery well & aren't spreading food all over the table, stop worrying & let them enjoy their food. Pick your battles & this isn't one of them.

Ketchup is for use with over-salty junk food.

I find it fabulous with Shepherds pie.

Though I wouldn’t expect it to be served in the unlikely event I ended up eating shepherds pie with the Queen.

Notjustanymum
According to some it is.

Apologies if I misunderstood you because I agree that teaching manners is important to avoid embarrassment, just some on this thread seem to deliberately confuse table manners with older conventions about tearing a bread roll correctly and think parents who don't ensure their children only have a bite sized piece of bread is going to prevent their child going places. It feels like some people have glanced through Debrett's, picked things they want to do and then use that position to look down on others in quite an unpleasant way.

Some have gone as far to say that if someone doesn't fit the rules (or more accurately the rules that they choose to follow) that they should expect parents of people they are dating to voice concerns about their suitability as a partner.

Ketchup is for use with over-salty junk food.

I don't really have it with my junk food which is the reason for just a small blob on the side as I just fancy it with the odd chip. It is absolutely amazing though lightly drizzled over macaroni cheese.

The "correct" way around to use cutlery is utter bollocks. What if your DC's dominant hand was their left? Would you berate them until they used their right hand to write? No of course you wouldn't. Cutlery is no different.

As for ketchup, if you want it everywhere, whack it everywhere! Who does it hurt?!

Well yes, and then goes on to say that the ketchup conversation was just the final straw of a bigger issue.

She only mentions that briefly though before going back to the main topic, the cause of the argument and the AIBU which is specifically ketchup etiquette. She then came back to the thread to tell off posters who discussed other aspects of table manners.

Generally agree about table manners. But ketchup over food, if you're eating ketchup at a meal be definition it can't be so fancy anyone would care!

@Elphame

You are correct - people do judge.

I wouldn't get too het up over the ketchup but I'm afraid if I had a date with someone who couldn't use his cutlery correctly it would be an absolute deal breaker.

I'm with you. I cannot stand bad table manners and this includes using your cutlery like a shovel and eating too fast with your head above the plate. I want to be able to take my OH to work events where you are expected to comfortably use the right cutlery, be able to make small talk with strangers, drink without knocking it back and generally be polite and fit in.

I am sure some people will say the above isn't necessary or something you do every day but I think it'd be a shame to not equip your children with the skills that would allow them to aim for positions in their careers or lives where the above would be expected.

@SomewhereInbetween1

The "correct" way around to use cutlery is utter bollocks. What if your DC's dominant hand was their left? Would you berate them until they used their right hand to write? No of course you wouldn't. Cutlery is no different.

As for ketchup, if you want it everywhere, whack it everywhere! Who does it hurt?!

The person who whacks it everywhere. Because unless they know that they can't do that in some formal settings, they will be held back in their business lives.

Because unless they know that they can't do that in some formal settings, they will be held back in their business lives.

They’d never get an opportunity to ‘whack it everywhere‘ in a formal setting, because it wouldn’t appear in a squeezy bottle in such a setting.

Sure. But if they think whacking it everywhere is OK in any setting, they are likely to do other things related to table manners that are inappropriate in more formal settings.

Insisting you put knives and forks a specific way around is just nonsense that discriminated against left handed people. It’s a throw back to a time when left handers were physically forced to write with their non dominant hand and all kinds of disgusting shit like that. YOU try eating with your non-dominant hand and then see how much you care about ‘etiquette’.
Anyone who cares beyond closing your mouth to chew is a dick who really needs to get out more.

But if they think whacking it everywhere is OK in any setting, they are likely to do other things related to table manners that are inappropriate in more formal settings.

I’m not sure how much we can extrapolate tbh. And the OP is very focused on ketchup usage.