Are you ‘lucky’ If you’ve done well for yourself?

[MissMessy12]

If you have a nice home, financially comfortable, happy family life does it annoy you when people comment on how ‘lucky’ you are?
To me luck is about chance, winning the lottery for example or being in the right place at the right time.
Everything I have, I’ve worked hard for, in my opinion has nothing to do with luck.

I think we are just approaching this differently. In my subject we don't tend to take 'sides'. We draw from a range of psychological and sociological theories and recognise the benefits as well as the limitations of these theories. I have a professional viewpoint and a personal one. I taught about luck, chance and individual agency. It didn't really matter what my personal viewpoint was. I am not currently lecturing, so used the term 'sides' to indicate the recurring polemic on this topic on this forum.

Interestingly, the theories my students find resonate most are those that recognise the role chance and luck. Yep. Statistically younger people do believe more in external agency, prior to gaining life experience, self confidence etc. But at some point, in some areas of endeavour, we all start to believe we have agency. That point in time is Congruency. It is situational for most people.

I reject the concept of agency as toxic and part of a much wider scam which exists to prevent us from noticing and dismantling the oppressive systems of capitalism and patriarchy and colonialism - it’s nothing more than gaslighting on a massive scale to pretend that the limitations are located within individuals instead of a grotesquely unfair world.

Interestingly, the theories my students find resonate most are those that recognise the role chance and luck. Yep. Statistically younger people do believe more in external agency, prior to gaining life experience, self confidence etc. But at some point, in some areas of endeavour, we all start to believe we have agency. That point in time is Congruency. It is situational for most people.

I run an MA. I'm not teaching young people. My students are in their 30's,40's and 50's. All have life experience and have worked in a variety of professional roles.
I'm not denying individual agency but we are still subject to chance as well as structural and societal barriers.

Hold that thought SueEllen

I reject the concept of agency as toxic and part of a much wider scam which exists to prevent us from noticing and dismantling the oppressive systems of capitalism and patriarchy and colonialism - it’s nothing more than gaslighting on a massive scale to pretend that the limitations are located within individuals instead of a grotesquely unfair world. Then you misunderstand the term! And all of the ultra emotional words in the world won't hide that!

I'm not denying any generic unfairness, lack of level playing field. Just not at all willing to say that as individuals we have no choice about how we act/react to choices, chances, opportunity etc

I'm not denying individual agency but we are still subject to chance as well as structural and societal barrier Then we are talking about the same thing, probably with the same understanding, but from different perspectives, both personal and professional!

Which isn't unusual...

not at all willing to say that as individuals we have no choice about how we act/react to choices, chances, opportunity etc

that’s not the same thing at all is it! Acknowledging the ways in which our choices are currently constrained is the only route to creating the chance to make societal changes so everyone has more opportunities. That doesn’t mean no choices are possible, but the focus on individual agency lets society off the hook and isn’t a useful expense of energy. We see it all the time especially in mental but also physical illness, the interest in the genetic bases of some conditions for example when we know that adverse childhood experiences are central to their development, we know genes don’t mutate quickly enough to account for the rising incidence of, for example MS in women, and we know that social and other inequalities have a large role to play in the number and type of these experiences. But we’d have to change social policy if we accepted these facts and it’s so much easier to point to the individual and apply a bit of magical thinking to give them more control.

In short I think I’m trying to say there is no true agency without first acknowledging and challenging the status quo. And that ‘doing well for yourself’ has nothing to do with buying stuff.

What kind of changes Ylfa?
I'm interested.

Personally, I think the 2 best pieces of luck you can have are good parents and good health. A lot of people with those 2 blessings turn out to have happy, comfortable lives, overall.

It's a bit of both though isn't it. People who insist it's just luck or just hard work are taking a blinkered approach.

Friends of mine live in a large gorgeous house, lots of nice holidays, comfortable financially. They both work very hard and it's without question their hardwork which has afforded then the ability to live comfortably middle-class lives.
But it's not because of their hard work of talent that they didn't have a disabled child meaning one of them needed to give up work. It isn't because of their hard work or talent that one of them hasn't become ill and had to give up work. Or that their partner has died young. Or had triplets on their second pregnancy which is likely to have made full time childcare unaffordable for a while (there's about 15 months between the kids). Of one of them had taken a three year career break they wouldn't be in the house their in. Or that their individual places of work haven't gone kapput through no fault of their own.

You could even say it's luck that they happened to meet someone who already owned a house in their late 20s enabling them to consolidate and upgrade. It wasn't particularly on the tick list. Or meet at all on a random night out.

It isn't an insult to say theres an element of good luck / good fortune in having healthy children / healthy partners etc

And yes if course some people with 4 children and a myriad of life long illness will still make a "success" of their lives, but it will be a damn site harder.

@7Days

What kind of changes Ylfa? I'm interested.

Personally, I think the 2 best pieces of luck you can have are good parents and good health. A lot of people with those 2 blessings turn out to have happy, comfortable lives, overall.

Reducing inequalities, even or especially good health isn’t a matter of luck. In our local news (Suffolk) yesterday there was chat about a ten year gap in life expectancy between the richest and poorest postcodes. It’s not only about poverty itself but the widening gap between the two extremes who live side by side in what isn’t a particularly deprived area. Although deprivation exists but is quite well hidden.

It's insulting to all those hard working, talented people who have had their livelihood destroyed due to an unpredicted global pandemic
And some of these will have done very well for themselves through hard work before and hard work might get them back up again. Others won't.

It’s 2020 and over 4 million British workers were living in poverty before COVID - how can anyone look at the situation and think that hard work is all that’s needed for a good standard of living
Well relative poverty, let's make this clear for a start.

Out of those 4 millions, how many will be in this position as a result of the choices they made. The choice not to study as hard as their counterparts. Choice not to look for jobs advertise whilst in enjoyment whilst others will look every week and apply to jobs, go to interviews to bother themselves. How many will chose to have children before getting a foot on the ladder and how many will opt to work PT because it makes life easier?

Some of those 4 millions will have experienced bad luck that is not of their doing, the majority will be where they are because of the choices their made. Many will be happy with that choice because although poorer, they consider their life happier.

I think the issue is that those who see others lucky have no notion of what extra dedication those 'lucky' go through. I was told I was lucky to have got a job near my home some years ago by a colleague always moaning about commuting, but she did nothing about it. I used to check jobs almost every day, applied to many, always making sure to adapt my application to the role. I prepared for interviews, including presentations, and then not get the job, but continue doing so for 3 years. Then one day it happened. So for this colleague to say it was luck infuriated me. She didn't get lucky because she didn't put the effort in as I did, that's all.

I've never understood this debate. Like most things in life, it's a combination of luck and judgement. What proportion of each? Who cares.

I don't work so that people can appreciate how great I am, I do it so my family can have a nice life. Whether it was a lotto win or working 16 hour days, the result is the same: I've got money and they haven't.

If people have more money than me through luck or hard work, good for them. I don't feel inferior either way.

@dontdisturbmenow

It's insulting to all those hard working, talented people who have had their livelihood destroyed due to an unpredicted global pandemic And some of these will have done very well for themselves through hard work before and hard work might get them back up again. Others won't.

It’s 2020 and over 4 million British workers were living in poverty before COVID - how can anyone look at the situation and think that hard work is all that’s needed for a good standard of living
Well relative poverty, let's make this clear for a start.

Out of those 4 millions, how many will be in this position as a result of the choices they made. The choice not to study as hard as their counterparts. Choice not to look for jobs advertise whilst in enjoyment whilst others will look every week and apply to jobs, go to interviews to bother themselves. How many will chose to have children before getting a foot on the ladder and how many will opt to work PT because it makes life easier?

Some of those 4 millions will have experienced bad luck that is not of their doing, the majority will be where they are because of the choices their made. Many will be happy with that choice because although poorer, they consider their life happier.

I think the issue is that those who see others lucky have no notion of what extra dedication those 'lucky' go through. I was told I was lucky to have got a job near my home some years ago by a colleague always moaning about commuting, but she did nothing about it. I used to check jobs almost every day, applied to many, always making sure to adapt my application to the role. I prepared for interviews, including presentations, and then not get the job, but continue doing so for 3 years. Then one day it happened. So for this colleague to say it was luck infuriated me. She didn't get lucky because she didn't put the effort in as I did, that's all.

It’s funny how when I read posts like this it’s always from the same handful of people whose names I recognise.

Oh well, as long as it’s relative poverty, that’s okay then.

People don’t choose their parents, their parents level of education, attitude or work ethic, or the things their parents choose to prioritise. They don’t choose which school they attend, where they grow up, their peer group, their class, their race, their health, their brain development. If you think that all of these people working minimum wage and living in poverty could be where you are if they’d worked harder and made different choices, you’re utterly mistaken.

My children are severely autistic. I don’t know if they’ll ever be able to talk let alone work or make choices about anything complex. They may be an extreme example but I know so many children who have less obvious neurological issues or learning disabilities who can get through school but will never be successful academically - some may be able to access apprenticeships, some won’t. You’re coming from an extremely fortunate position in the first place and you should be able to understand that.

@dontdisturbmenow

It's insulting to all those hard working, talented people who have had their livelihood destroyed due to an unpredicted global pandemic And some of these will have done very well for themselves through hard work before and hard work might get them back up again. Others won't.

It’s 2020 and over 4 million British workers were living in poverty before COVID - how can anyone look at the situation and think that hard work is all that’s needed for a good standard of living
Well relative poverty, let's make this clear for a start.

Out of those 4 millions, how many will be in this position as a result of the choices they made. The choice not to study as hard as their counterparts. Choice not to look for jobs advertise whilst in enjoyment whilst others will look every week and apply to jobs, go to interviews to bother themselves. How many will chose to have children before getting a foot on the ladder and how many will opt to work PT because it makes life easier?

Some of those 4 millions will have experienced bad luck that is not of their doing, the majority will be where they are because of the choices their made. Many will be happy with that choice because although poorer, they consider their life happier.

I think the issue is that those who see others lucky have no notion of what extra dedication those 'lucky' go through. I was told I was lucky to have got a job near my home some years ago by a colleague always moaning about commuting, but she did nothing about it. I used to check jobs almost every day, applied to many, always making sure to adapt my application to the role. I prepared for interviews, including presentations, and then not get the job, but continue doing so for 3 years. Then one day it happened. So for this colleague to say it was luck infuriated me. She didn't get lucky because she didn't put the effort in as I did, that's all.

Nobody is denying that hard work is key. Not one person has said it's all 'luck'.

The issue with your points around choice is that you are completely ignoring the structural and societal barriers which impact choice.

There is a huge amount of research that is showing that women are being disproportionately disadvantaged in their careers as a result of the pandemic. Do you think this is all a result of free choice? The influence of structural barriers and societal expectations is significant.

It depends on your circumstances I guess.

I would consider myself 'lucky' in a way because most of our financial comfort comes from the fact that DH has worked incredibly hard to build a successful business. I've worked hard too but he's the one who got us to where we are financially really.

I guess that counts as luck that I married him and not someone else? (Met way before his business started).

The issue with your points around choice is that you are completely ignoring the structural and societal barriers which impact choice
I'm not ignore it at all. I posted over and over 5hatvdome people indeed have bad luck that will limit them. I just don't agree that we should make a generality of these people because I think they represent a minority. That a much larger proportion of people do have control over where they take their life.

If you take a 6th form year of 150 students in an average income area. Say 30 of these students will struggle due to very bad background, tragedy, significant health issues etc...the rest will overall have similar circumstances with similar opportunities. Yet some will end up doing very well and the majority will just get by with a minority that will struggle.

Those who will study and revise the hardest will be most likely to get top grades, more likely to be accepted into top Uni, more likely to apply the same dedication to their studies, and in the end, more likely to get a very good first entry job.

So again, it's not about ignoring that some will start with significant limitations, that others will face significant hardship, but that the majority will indeed have their destiny in their hands and those working harder will more likely do better.

I guess that counts as luck that I married him and not someone else? (Met way before his business started)
In most instances I would say that it isn't down to luck. It's up to us to make a judgement on who we marry. We control where we meet people, how long we give ourselves the chance to get to know them, to apply judgement on their qualities and defaults, on the compromises we are prepare to make it not etc...

Of course 'doing well' is luck. Lucky to be born in a wealthy country. Lucky to have resources, education, intelligence, whatever. Luck is all it is. Chance, luck, and the desire to work hard (which is also luck, as it's part of one's personality)

Luck and chance is the human condition.

Those who will study and revise the hardest will be most likely to get top grades, more likely to be accepted into top Uni, more likely to apply the same dedication to their studies, and in the end, more likely to get a very good first entry job.
If only all schools were in average areas.......

Actually, those who study hardest and get top grades don't always go to the top universities.

I really do think that this question comes down to how it is interpreted.

Are we lucky to have done well, to be healthy, loved, supported. Well of course. Noone is going to claim that it's bad luck to have it all. There is no debate to be had looking at it from this point of view.

The question is 'if you've done well, is it down to luck only or mainly! This where for a minority, the answer will be yes. I happen to have done little to push myself in life but then won the lottery. Or I have done little to push myself but one day I got to talk to that stranger and he offered me a job, and despite working just as minimally as I could get away with, I kept getting promoted because I had no competition and the guy has taken a shining in me.

In most case though, this is only with us in dreams. In reality, those who have done well have got there through their own doing. It's not just about hard work but seizing opportunities. Networking, researching, meeting new people, putting ourselves forward, although I guess this could still fall under the meaning of hard work.

If only all schools were in average areas.......
The debate is not whether some have it harder than others. This is a fact. Of course those in less achievable schools will have it harder to compete.

The point is that everything equal, some will do well and some won't and those who will can most likely attribute it to having worked harder (or make choices that don't reward immediate gratification).

Actually, those who study hardest and get top grades don't always go to the top universities
This was for illustration as a generalisation. Of course they don't ALWAYS follow that path.

Actually, those who study hardest and get top grades don't always go to the top universities

This was for illustration as a generalisation. Of course they don't ALWAYS follow that path.

The point I was making here was that there are structural barriers and societal expectations at play here. Assuming that hard work and top grades is all you need is, unfortunately, not always true.
I've spent years working with young people from low socioeconomic backgrounds and first generation students in relation to their university choices. In this country you are two thirds more likely to attend a university if you come from a high socioeconomic background and your parents attended university.
There are thousands of young people who,despite being more than capable, are not attending elite universities. This is can be because they don't fit in or they simply can't afford to move away so opt for a local institution.

Young people with professional parents have access to wider networks which can help with education and career choices.

Hard work is important, of course it is. Not one person would deny that but there are other factors at play.
Meritocracy is a myth - unfortunately.

I've spent years working with young people from low socioeconomic backgrounds and first generation students in relation to their university choices. In this country you are two thirds more likely to attend a university if you come from a high socioeconomic background and your parents attended university.

Attend an elite university this should say .....

@dontdisturbmenow

I guess that counts as luck that I married him and not someone else? (Met way before his business started) In most instances I would say that it isn't down to luck. It's up to us to make a judgement on who we marry. We control where we meet people, how long we give ourselves the chance to get to know them, to apply judgement on their qualities and defaults, on the compromises we are prepare to make it not etc...

It seems that you could explain anything really with either luck or not.

To me it's luck that I met DH rather than someone else (or he met someone else before me). It's 'luck' that we just so happened to be single at the same time and so on, lucky that I married a man who ended up successful in his business etc...

What else is that if not luck? It wasn't down to hard work that I happened to meet and marry DH?

He is also lucky too, a lot of his success is hard work but a lot of it is luck too imo. There are plenty of people who work and try incredibly hard and don't get to where they want to be for a whole variety of reasons.

The thing is EVERYONE in the U.K. is ‘lucky’ even if you grew up in care and now live in a council flat with no carpet and nothing to your name you’re still ‘lucky’ you were born here with a benefit system and not in a mud hut with no running water or free health care.

It’s all just measurements of how ‘lucky’ you perceive someone to be. Being comfortably off, having a job, a house, a nice car..etc sometimes it’s ‘lucky’ sometimes it’s ‘success’ sometimes it’s a mixture of both.

Take me and DH for example.

DH: raised middle class. Coached/helped into a highly paid well respected career. Exams/fees paid for, six figure inheritance from a parent got him on property ladder. Yes he works hard but there is a HUGE element of luck in where he now is in life. It was somewhat presented to him/handed to him.

Me: Raised on benefits in middle of nowhere. Couldn’t afford to finish college. Worked in a call centre on minimum wage. Had to get into debt to live. I was ‘lucky’ neither of my parents had a strong regional accent and I was somewhat attractive but beyond that I was left totally to my own devices. I clawed my way into a office admin job, went to uni whilst working FT and dated ‘sensible settle down’ type men with solid futures. Whilst all my friends dated ‘jack the lad hotties’ they met in town or on tinder asking for ‘nothing serious’.

I frequently now here ‘you’re so lucky to have a man like DH and your lovely life’ and I’m like ‘literally every single guy you date has alarm bells and red flags going before you even meet him- why are you surprised it never turns out well?’