Husband and his brother

[OldOrMaybeNotThatOld]

Just a rant really.
My husband started a business many years ago and its turned into a success. I am an accountant by trade and so I work with him managing the finances.
My husband has one brother (my BIL) who is far less successful than he is and has always jumped from job to job, relationship to relationship, has been black listed for bad debt and just generally is a bit of a slack arse about life where even going for a walk around the block is too much effort for him. My husband on the other hand is driven, motivated, passionate about his business and is fit and looks after his health. So polar opposites with little in common except that they are brothers.
About 10 years ago my BIL just up and left his job with the usual excuse about how 'he just couldnt take it anymore' and got kicked out of his rental and landed up sleeping on our couch. Out of desperation my DH gave him a job. It was a position created for him just to get him off our couch and on his feet.
10 years later and his is still working for us, living in a house we have provided and driving a company vehicle. My DH has moved him around the business about 5 times because he just keeps failing by either not being capable or because his slack bulchy attitude affects the other staff who we cant afford to lose.
And so its rolled around again that BIL has to be moved out of his position because things are falling apart around him and staff are unhappy.
Im so fed up with it.
My DH has no respect for him and because of the family relations has no boundaries in how he talks to him so just ends up shouting at BIL all day because he is honestly so useless at his job.
BIL has no self respect and honestly just takes it all in as 'part of the job'. He has no drive and is in his late 40s so I think he just thinks we are his retirement plan so is prepared to just suck up a bad job because its comfortable and safe.
Im at my wits end with an unhappy DH who is resentful that his own brother (older by the way) has become his responsibility. Im pissed off at BIL who seems to have no desire to be better and I cant understand why someone would have so little self respect that they would get up everyday and go to a job that he knows he is not doing well in. And Im angry at both of them because one has gained an employee, the other an employer but both have lost a brother because we do not see each other outside of work because my DH just needs a break!
Our business does well enough financially and I feel like the best thing to do is to just pay BIL to do nothing for the sake of peace at home and at work.

@EKGEMS

I'd just pay him to stay home and as far away from your business as possible

I was thinking along these lines. Could the business pension him off early? Lump sum and monthly stipend?

Could he set up on his own with this arrangement? He might be able to drive a van about, do deliveries, or similar, a few hours a day.

I think he is likely to have expectations of inheritance too, so as a pp suggested, you might refer to it as 'inheritance come early, as this current arrangement isn't working'.

Doesnt make it any less frustrating that a person has so little self respect that they cant see the burden they are being on their own (little) brother

I suspect this waster sees it perfectly well and just doesn't care - why would he, when he's enjoying such a cushy position?

I have a very dear friend who married into a family like this (in fact I wondered if you were her ...) and a key point is just how much the rest of the staff despise the family for all the things they tolerate

It doesn't sound as if your DH has the spine to address this properly, but I wonder if he's ever considered that aspect?

OP, I know you just wanted to moan about the overall situation but simply accepting it really isn’t a long term solution. You need a definite plan to put an end to it.

In your shoes, I’d be seriously worried if you do have children together and how BIL’s currently lazy ‘lifestyle’ might rub off on your children. You obviously value hard work and determination but children don’t necessarily pick up all their cues from their parents.

You are already planning to support BIL throughout retirement but what message will that send to your own offspring if they deliberately choose to be feckless too?

Just look at how many offspring of very wealthy families end up doing drugs or other criminal activities because they’ve never had to strive for anything. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility.

I also feel sorry for him. I can’t believe that he doesn’t have enough self respect to say that he deserves better and go and find it for himself.

I get you feel sorry for him and you've said repeatedly that he has no self respect. But why on earth would he change or do anything to improve himself when he doesn't have to? He's living in the land of milk and honey on the back of others who do the work. I don't think it's a self respect issue. I think it's a situation where he knows that the status quo won't change. There's a lot of people out there who don't have self respect issues- they just find it easy to take advantage.

And my DH is no saint. I feel dreadful when I hear how he talks to BIL I just know that is coming from a place of deep resentment and offset with a stupid obligation to keep helping this man.
I agree your DH is no saint. He, and maybe you have no-one to blame but yourselves for this situation. You talk about your BIL having no self- respect yet you don't realise that in enabling him rather than helping him to help himself, you are helping to erode it. Your DH treats him with a lack of respect and continually being shouted at is not going to make your BIL do something better with his life. It is going to further damage his self-esteem and confidence.

No-one wants to do a crap job. What is the point in making him a manager of different areas without equipping him with the knowledge and training to carry out the job successfully? By moving him around like that your DH is also demonstrating to his other employees that he is a poor leader, incapable of solving problems and I wouldn't be surprised if his workforce have little respect for him.

I also immediately noted that you referred to your BIL's failed marriage yet didn't refer to your DH's as such.

What I would do:

1. Have a calm and open discussion with BIL about his performance in all roles. Try and get him to open up about what is going wrong. What you do will depend on what transpires. Does he need training? Education?

1. Could you put him in some sort of development scheme within the company, starting at the bottom and learning about all roles in depth so that he gains good knowledge and experience and ultimately becomes a manager?

1. If he had a choice in life, what would he ideally want to do/be? Could you help support him to equip him with the skills needed to achieve that?

4. Realise that not everyone is driven and motivated and that is okay. Maybe there are reasons why your BIL drifted while your DH didn't. Maybe the two boys were treated differently by their parents? Maybe your BIL's self-esteem was damaged long ago and he struggled to get up from being so low. Is he depressed? The longer you leave this, the less chance of a good family relationship. You will all end up hating each other. That would be incredibly sad.

Agree that callign his sacking a 'pensioning off' and giving him the stipend that way is genius.

OP, remember that havign him in a job somewhere out of the way still leaves you with the issue of the house, and what if you want to return to the UK.

If you can get him out of the house though (it goes with the management job remember) and make his new pay fit the cost of a cheap rental and living expenses, then if you DO move to the UK 'pension' him then at the same rough rate - then that would also do the job.

But he must be kept away from all other employees and the daily business milieu. He's doing an incredible amount of damage to your company's reputation.

Thank you everyone for your responses.
I know we are to blame for getting ourselves into this mess by elevating him beyond his capabilities.
But honestly, everyone lives on a little hope that either things will get better or that he will change.
We learnt a new phrase this week and its my go to when discussing BIL (Which we do often!) - You cant unboil an egg!
My BIL and DH had similar upbringings up to about the age of 13 where my DH chose to go off to boarding school and my BIL remained under the wing of his mother. My DH insists that this was the turning point in his life. But I dont believe that there is a blue print for a human and two humans brought up under the same conditions can still turn out differently.

It really does affect our family structure and I feel desperate for my DH that he doesnt have a brother but rather a lazy employee. I try hard with my BIL to include him outside of work but he really is just different to us. Like someone said earlier that not everybody is motivated and driven and I think we would both be ok with that if it wasnt at our expense! He is not a bad guy... Just lazy and uncooperative at work with a real bulchy moody attitude.

I think my DH and I need to sit down and accept that the living situation is not going to change, he lives on our property and there is some use for him there in terms of making sure it 'works' and is kept maintained. But when it comes to the business he needs to be sidelined to do something that doesnt interfere with the day to day running of things. He also needs explaining to that he is nobodys manager! And that even by virtue of the fact he is related to DH, doesnt give him any super powers (I suspect that there is a bit of superiority going on here).

As for his girlfriend ... My DH says she will soon find out who owns what and who is in charge of what goes on. Very sad for my BIL because he should probably take his ego down a notch and be honest about where his lifestyle comes from.

What do I want for Christmas? A REALLY wealthy women who wants to date my BIL!!!

I hope this isn’t too outing but we have a similar situation.

Successful business. Someone working in the business who, even by their own admission, is a piss take.

It has been easier and made everyone happier (even me!) to pay said person for...honestly...not much.

I’m not at all a pushover and there are very specific circumstances. We too have tried every little thing we could and this way is just for the best.

You’re not a failure or pushover to do this.

3. If he had a choice in life, what would he ideally want to do/be? Could you help support him to equip him with the skills needed to achieve that?

I do have to answer this.... When he was initially just bumming it on our couch half heartedly looking for a job he suggested that he was just going to advertise his 'services' in the local newspaper! So no ... I dont think he really knows what he wants to do or actually ever had any direction at any point in his life. He has always just bumbled along and hit a jackpot when his brother fulfilled his dream of owning his own business!

If you decide to keep him in the business (really, dont, he is neither use or ornament) make sure that he cannot commit the business in any way. No power to buy, rent, lease anything. A person who is out of sight, has no great moral scruples and an inflated sense of their own importance can do a lot of commercial harm.

Somewhere I think every family has someone like this. If there is no wealth they will still be found on the fringes of groups, accepting drinks but never reciprocating. Splashing cash they have managed to sponge off a doting relative on some trinket or toy. Always willing to accept hospitality but always arrive empty handed and disappear as the washing up gets mentioned.

@OldOrMaybeNotThatOld you said he has done every job except cleaner. Why don’t you make him the cleaner? Then he’s away from your DH and he might be able to not mess that job up. If you have a cleaner you could ask them to supervise him and give him tasks?

If I was a member of staff of a firm that was propping up a useless colleague because of nepotism, I would be looking for a new job.

This must be damaging your husband's relationship with his workforce

It's really difficult. Ultimately, you are choosing not to cut him loose - you could, but you're choosing not to, and the reason for that is because you will feel bad about it. There isn't a way round that - you either carry on supporting him and feeling resentful but not guilty, or you cut him off and feel guilty but not resentful. I think most people would find it very hard to do the latter.

We have a not too dissimilar situation, with a perfectly capable, but extremely lazy, family member, who has spent the last 20 years being bailed out by various relatives. We've now got to the point where their parents and siblings just accept regular support payments as part of their own outgoings. No one likes it, but no one wants to cut them off in case it all goes horribly wrong, particularly given that the person in question has a self-destructive stubborn streak a mile wide, and would probably let themselves end up on the streets just to make a point.

It may come to a head at some point in the near future, as their spending on luxuries has started to creep up, and while people can just about make peace with paying for rent or groceries, we are going to struggle with paying vet bills for pedigree puppies, or for designer clothes and expensive tech.

Sympathies, OP. It feels like you should be able to just say 'enough' but the reality isn't that simple.

First step would be for him to move out of your house and rent elsewhere. I understand it is fine at the moment that he is renting from you but it is one more thing that makes him dependent on you.
He needs to rent from a landlord - which he can as you pay him a salary!

Next step, sit him down and ask what his plans are for retirement. How much will he need per month? How much will his state pension be? Then based on this find out how much he should/could set aside every month and same as you did for the rent you can setup a monthly payment to a pension pot.

Slowly he will be less reliable, except for the job.

Sympathies, OP. It feels like you should be able to just say 'enough' but the reality isn't that simple.

This is the ultimate truth!

I invited him out to a dinner for my DH birthday with a bunch of our friends, friends who are not dissimilar to us in terms of shared interests. Time came to pay the bill. Everybody offered to share or split the bill except BIL. I was mortified so I just paid for everyone and said it was my DH birthday so the bill was on me.

I think he thinks the ‘family business’ pays so has long stopped dipping into his own pocket.

Gosh The more I talk about it the more ludicrous the situation sounds 😳

That's just appalling

I would really really suggest getting him out of the house by the way. It comes with the job so it's the perfect reason, and the fewer links the better. I would be very wary of him living there for so long that one day, it'll just be 'BIL's house' and when you come to move or sell it will just become another massive hurdle that somehow seems unthinkable to transgress.

Whereas right now you could simply say that you'll have to find alternative accommodation for him as that house goes with the role, he'll be moving to X role so he'll need to find other accommodation. Matter of fact.

@YoniAndGuy

That's just appalling

I would really really suggest getting him out of the house by the way. It comes with the job so it's the perfect reason, and the fewer links the better. I would be very wary of him living there for so long that one day, it'll just be 'BIL's house' and when you come to move or sell it will just become another massive hurdle that somehow seems unthinkable to transgress.

Whereas right now you could simply say that you'll have to find alternative accommodation for him as that house goes with the role, he'll be moving to X role so he'll need to find other accommodation. Matter of fact.

Getting him out wouldn’t be a problem. He will do whatever DH says as long as there is an alternative. If DH says you’re moving to another place as provided by us, he will simply comply. He is a pliable mooch.

We have never tried the tough love stance before where there is no benefit to him.

Your brother is in a horrible position. I want to say - fuck his lazy arse brother. But it’s not so simple, I know.

However... what is simple is that your husband was a fool to pander to his brother’s ego by calling him a “manager” and setting him above other staff. No wonder the other staff were unhappy about that!

It sounds like you can afford to carry him, and for your husband - when push comes to shove - wants to carry him.

What I would do differently is take away any pretence of calling him a manager and take away the elevated salary. Pay him enough to cover the rent to you, and what a low skilled worker would get. Adjust it upwards a bit to cover the rent, if you have to. But what he should have left in his pocket to spend should reflect a low wage.

I would avoid even verbally using phrases like “right hand man” which make him sound valuable. He’s not. If you really have NOTHING he can do (that he can do without pissing off other workers) then pay him to do nothing.

Make him wash some farm machinery every day. If he’s shit at washing it (which I suspect he would be) then pick something that isn’t washed daily, usually. Get a proper staff member to wash it on the correct schedule, whilst he washes it daily.

Or don’t make him parts manager, but get him to count the parts and dust them every day, when not needed.

Hell, make him put a chair outside the tied house for 8 hours a day “security” - but please don’t call him the security “manager”.

Give him something easy, dull, and unnecessary - but cut his pay and don’t give him a fancy ego pandering title. Right hand man, my arse!

Gosh today has really been a day for thinking about all the crazy situations BIL has put us in.
Claims he LOVES camping but doesn’t own a caravan let alone a tent. So will happily come along with us and enjoy the amenities provided for by us. Can’t even bring a gas stove and kettle to make his own coffee in the morning. Not even his own camping chair. Then he leaves early and my DH insists he must take down his own tent and take hone the camping stuff he used so we don’t have to. He moaned like a pig because he wouldn’t be able to fit it in his car without it being a squash (the work car we provide him with). He eventually complied. Which reminds me that my camping equipment is lying on the garage floor probably trashed!

Thank you for allowing me to get this off my chest and for providing perspective on how unusual this setup actually is. It’s not normal and we are going to need to manage back down to something which is more palatable for us.

The thing is, if you even do a few key things:

• get him living elsewhere, in somewhere which is not as plush, and isn't taking up a house which should be with one of the managers
• downgrade the job and put him somewhere where he doesn't even see other staff
• have him living off the property so there's just more distance, and not this tacit 'He's one of the family therefore can take the piss vibe;

• then I think your DH will feel as if things are set out a bit straighter and he's not being made such a mug of, and he'll be able to get a better grip on his emotions when dealing with BIL.

Right now, he's literally rubbing his parasite, fuck-you behaviour in your face and your DH simply cannot cope with it.

A BIL living in the nearest village, who just isn't 'around' in the same way, might not have even been at or known that that dinner out was taking place.

That kind of distance would be a good thing.

@YoniAndGuy

The thing is, if you even do a few key things:

• get him living elsewhere, in somewhere which is not as plush, and isn't taking up a house which should be with one of the managers
• downgrade the job and put him somewhere where he doesn't even see other staff
• have him living off the property so there's just more distance, and not this tacit 'He's one of the family therefore can take the piss vibe;

• then I think your DH will feel as if things are set out a bit straighter and he's not being made such a mug of, and he'll be able to get a better grip on his emotions when dealing with BIL.

Right now, he's literally rubbing his parasite, fuck-you behaviour in your face and your DH simply cannot cope with it.

A BIL living in the nearest village, who just isn't 'around' in the same way, might not have even been at or known that that dinner out was taking place.

That kind of distance would be a good thing.

Agreed - We need to something that we can basically live with.

DH and I both agree that the family relationship would be better and less strained if we put up some boundaries and manage the piss taking to a level that we can tolerate.

I think he's never had a chance to grow up, mil babied a grown man and now dh is doing the same.

I'd look up the price of a basic flat, and work out the bare minimum cost of living. So it's £x

Looking at his wage now and the grief he causes, compared with £x and no grief. What's the better option, obviously factoring in the fact that another manager would pay to live there.

You can keep him off the streets without spending £££

Correct, What gave it away?

BILtong?

What is he actually capable of doing?

Has he any skills of any kind at all? Even sweeping the floors?