Vaccine fairness

[MozzchopsThirty]

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

But the most likely to die are generally the most likely to die anyway

Nope - I’m CEV with school age DC and expecting a normal/near normal lifespan

So unless you mean ‘going to die anyway’ in the sense that we’re all going to die (and I doubt that’s your intended meaning), please think before you start do readily lopping decades off other people’s expected lifespan

If you are going to be like that, why not say it is for employed people only?

@MozzchopsThirty

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

We need those who are likely to take up hospital beds, vaccinating first. That way, the NHS is available to treat everyone else who needs it.

Clinical need first, I agree. And those needed to look after people with clinical need - nhs staff and care home workers.

“Those of working age” are going to be last priority - that’s able bodied adults ffs

I do hope they get to children before healthy young and middle aged adults (which includes me) because they’ve been too much bottom of the pile in this - it’ll help keep schoolnopens and of course avert tragedy in those few who do develop serious symptoms.

But of course not up to me either!

IV well said. People don't get how cev are all sorts of people, including key workers, kids and old people.

Personally I would like to see unpaid carers up there in the priority list but it doesn’t look like that will happen

The glossary in table 3 in the draft version put cohabitants and carers of the immunosuppressed in with the CV (so priority 6), so at least some unpaid carers will qualify. But I've not seen a final form yet, so not sure if that stayed in the finished version

I really don't have much of an opinion on it, but I really enjoyed the irony of this part of your post:

You can all virtue signal as much as you like, but food producers, farmers, delivery drivers, police, teachers are keeping the country running, keeping us fed, giving the children an education and keeping us safe.

I quite like a fire analogy here.

There's a fire in a museum. You only have a little bit of water for the next 10 mins when more will come.

Do you put out the fire entirely on the most precious, unique, historically significant artefact?
Or do you use it on the heart of the fire where you can get it dampened and keep your fingers crossed it doesn't spread to your most precious artefact?

We're going for the first option & I'm ok with that.

@MozzchopsThirty

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

Bame first rather than clinical need? Have you been on that BLM UK site again?

I think the elderly in care homes should get it first precisely as they might not have long left and they've been isolated and unable to see loved ones for a very long time. They deserve their final bit of normality.

@41weekswithno2

I think we should vaccinate in order of clinical need.

This.

By vaccinating the most vulnerable (i.e. those most likely to get significant symptoms and requiring medical help) we can safeguard the NHS for everyone else, for the other diseases prevalent at this time of year and reduce deaths in that group as well. It's win-win.

@AuntieStella

Personally I would like to see unpaid carers up there in the priority list but it doesn’t look like that will happen

The glossary in table 3 in the draft version put cohabitants and carers of the immunosuppressed in with the CV (so priority 6), so at least some unpaid carers will qualify. But I've not seen a final form yet, so not sure if that stayed in the finished version

That sounds positive then!

YABU.

Bame first rather than clinical need?

To be fair, BAME groups are a more at risk group from COVID19, it is well documented that they are disproportionately represented in severe cases. i.e. if affects them more severely.

@Parkandride

Surely its easier to organise by age than various cofactors like ethnicity and jobs etc. You don't want people missed? Picturing some giant spreadsheet with all the filters on wrong like the one that messed up the track and trace

Actually - I think this is a really good point.

I don't think looking at age only prioritises clinical need effectively but I equally think they would screw it up if they tried to figure out who was BAME and/or had a high-risk job and/or was obese etc. Age is probably the best way they can prioritise given the lack of accurate, available data and high amount of Government incompetence.

The whole point is that the people who are most likely to be severely affected and need an intensive care bed get the vaccine first. That will free up beds for those with not only covid but people who have had a heart attack or been in a car accident etc.

The most vulnerable categories are the most likely to die from it, so giving them the vaccine first will also help to save as many lives as possible.

I'm astounded that anybody would disagree with that, to be honest.

Nope. They are vaccinating the people who are having most impact on hospital admissions first, and working their way backwards. Possibly care home residents/care home workers first is a slightly emotional choice but there are probably only about 500,000 of those and they are easily accessible (+ their workforce - about the same number) so they can be done relatively quickly before we move on to c. 3million over 80s and 1 million NHS workers. Once they are all done then the pressure on the NHS will start being relieved which has been one of the most important issues all along.

@knittingaddict

Can't win. One minute it's "it's just the old dying", next minute it's "why are the old getting the vaccine first, it's so unfair."

This 100%

It didn't take long for those who weren't bothered about covid because it's only the old who die to start moaning about having to wait for the vaccine!!!
I despair

No.
I'm working age, 30 years old. I'm also a keyworker, I'm responsible for a number of Global pharmaceutical supply chains.

But I don't need the vaccine, because I can do my job sat on my ass in my dressing gown at home. No risk to me whatsoever. Why should I receive the vaccine before somebody who is 92, in a care home (where transmission is rife)?

The average life expectancy of people in care or nursing homes is 1-2 years, so unfortunately by the time all this cohort are vaccinated, a reasonable percentage will have already died of something else.
It's not a popular public opinion, but most doctors and nurses I work with agree with you OP.

They are looking at occupational priority once they reach the otherwise healthy u50s. Perhaps ethnic group could be considered then, along with other roles/household exposure to the CEV (because for 5% or more the vaccine won’t work and for some may be contraindicated) so it shouldn’t be brought home to them if that can be avoided)

However they do it won’t please everyone. There will also be people who refuse to be vaccinated and will want to wait for everyone else to have it first.

It has to be done on the basis of clinical need and in the meantime the rest of us just have to continue to be as careful as we can until we can have it. I do think teachers, NHS, care workers etc should get it before the general population though. The ones who are in the best position to protect themselves should come last.

Mildred and Bert age 92 in bluebells home are not

If Mildred and Bert catch it, they'll use scarce NHS resources such as the ambulance, ICU bed, etc etc. meaning less availability for other people, such as the young!

If Mildred and Bert catch it in a home, they're highly likely to pass it to many of the other (possibly younger) residents and maybe some of the staff. Meaning even more people needing an ambulance and ICU bed, meaning even less availability of NHS services for other people.

That is unless you're the kind of person happy to isolate the dying Mildred and Bert in their prison cell like bedrooms, to help stop them catching it, and then leaving them to die in their beds without medical support if they do catch it.

@VaTeLaverLesMains

To be fair the OP would save the NHS a shedload of money going forward.

The cheapest hospital to run would kill everyone on admission.

We're all going to die anyway op,even you.

You would change your tune if you got ill.

It would certainly save triage.

Just a little guillotine in the doorway and a chute to the morgue.

I think we should vaccinate based on clinical need, which should be decided by someone who knows what they are talking about