Vaccine fairness

[MozzchopsThirty]

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

@Belladonna12 Its 2 different groups, CEV (Shielded) are considered a separate risk category to CV (not shielded), with different guidance and risk assessment. So your post read entirely like you were stating CV should be prioritised as they work.

CEV are in group 4 for vaccination and CV are group 6.

@HikeForward no the vaccine is known to prevent the vaccinated person from becoming seriously ill with covid. We do not yet know if it prevents you from carrying and passing on the illness.

[quote Redcherries]@Belladonna12 Its 2 different groups, CEV (Shielded) are considered a separate risk category to CV (not shielded), with different guidance and risk assessment. So your post read entirely like you were stating CV should be prioritised as they work.

CEV are in group 4 for vaccination and CV are group 6.[/quote]
Obviously there are two lists for vaccination but I wasn't commenting on that .I was talking about whether everybody who is clinically vulnerable can just stay safely at home. In that context, using the term "clinically vulnerable" doesn't exclude those who are extremely vulnerable.

There are 800,000 doses. That is enough for 400,000 people.
We know that there is going to be a spike in Jan/Feb because of rules relaxation and mingling + then kids back to school.

As much as I feel for the 80+ people, from a society perspective please tell me how does it make sense to give it to them and not selected NHS personnel?

The argument for 80+ is purely emotional and populist. The rational decision would be the doctors/nurses/dentists.
Look at the doctor's age statistic: www.statista.com/statistics/698278/registered-doctors-united-kingdom-uk-by-age/#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20almost%20301%20thousand,over%2070%20in%20the%20UK.

35,000 are above 50. They are higher risk due to age AND their occupation, but still Joan from the care home who doesn't go anywhere is prioritized. How does that make sense? And she can be protected by people around her wearing extra protection.

If it was really about rationale an logic than a potential solution would be care home workers + identified NHS staff. Eg ICU nurses, or doctors above 70/50/xx.

I think if you asked most CEV people they wouldn't find that context, but then it doesn't sound like you have walked in our shoes this year.

No, many can't. I can't, and when I have had to be onsite its in an educational facility (although I don't work in education). But thank you for explaining to me, having been CEV and in touch with many CEV people with many conditions since March my knowledge is somewhat lacking.

I believe shielding should have continued, with the correct support for staff and employers in place. Care home residents cannot be shielded. The vaccine list is fine but they should have allowed CEV to remain out of contact until it was our turn.

Theres no easy way to decide the lists, especially as theres not enough DATA to work out the CEV's actual risks as we were shielded.

The government have just changed their plans - now care homes will get the vaccine before the NHS, which in reality means instead of the NHS at this point since there are only 800,000 vaccines and 1.2 million people in care homes.

I am furious. The PPE provided to doctors and nurses doesn't properly protect them from the HUGE viral load of a patient ill enough to be hospitalised. Only yesterday the government admitted that the rate of Covid-19 infections caught INSIDE hospitals was far too high, and yet doctors and nurses will have to wait, what I expect will be weeks or months for a vaccination. In the meantime, their health and lives and those of their families, and those of other patients in hospital, other staff in hospital, people whose work takes them into hospital or transport workers serving hospitals - all at high risk.

Apparently even NHS workers aren't a priority now@ Belladonna12
That's strange as I'm NHS frontline and getting my vaccine next week.
Lots of hearsay about who is at the front of the queue. This has been decided and the logistics of providing the vaccine to the wider public now have to be decided upon .

They said the shielding and ECV arnet dying as much as the elderly. Because they have been largely still fucking shielding still! Seeing a lot of my friends not see anyone indoors since March and a lot of elderly deciding their life is too short and having everyone and their dog in for a cuppa.

So those asked to shield aren’t dying as they are still in hiding.

I think it should be NHS staff first for obvious reasons.
Then care homes if they can make the vaccines work and then shielding. Otherwise if she was a factor they would have told those over 75 to shield. They are telling sheilding people to not bubble for Christmas and keep shielding.

Then next I think should be teachers. Then do it down in age.

Although I did see a compelling argument about immunising all the commuters into London of you want to kick start the economy.

The government hasn't changed its plans - care homes have been in first priority position since JCVI published the division list back in September. The only changes between then and the list now is moving the CEV up from 6th priority to 4th (with 70yos, rather than after all 65yos) and dropping the minimum age from 18 (for CV) to 16 (priority 6)

Logistics might mean that they start priorities 1 and 2 together (care home residents/staff who can attend a hub, or who can be safely reached within the safe vaccine handling procedures, plus any over 80s (also priority 2) who are visiting an administering hospital for any appointment can be done whilst they are there)

I think if you asked most CEV people they wouldn't find that context, but then it doesn't sound like you have walked in our shoes this year.

You are incorrect because I put in "extremely vulnerable" category earlier in the pandemic and probably will be again in the near future. You are completely misunderstanding what I was talking about. I wasn't saying anything about who should or shouldn't be prioritised for the vaccination. I was just commenting on the fact that the not everybody who is vulnerable (and that includes those who are extremely vulnerable) can stay-at-home.

@Thedogscollar

Apparently even NHS workers aren't a priority now@ Belladonna12 That's strange as I'm NHS frontline and getting my vaccine next week. Lots of hearsay about who is at the front of the queue. This has been decided and the logistics of providing the vaccine to the wider public now have to be decided upon .

It has been in the news that they aren't the top priority. I'm glad to hear the news is wrong.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/04/nhs-staff-no-longer-top-priority-for-covid-vaccine-despite-fear-of-third-wave

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4097575-NHS-staff-now-come-after-care-homes-for-vaccine

Started a thread specifically for this now.
Predictably, everyone is fatigued of valuing and prioritising the NHS now.

I suppose it's difficult to separate out the ECV who have barricaded themselves inside since March and are highly unlikely to become infected, and those who by necessity must have interactions with the outside world - having dcs at school/going to work etc.

The media tend to focus on people with noses pressed up against the window looking mournfully through the glass, when in fact a fair few of us ECV are just being very, very careful and keeping our fingers crossed that our kids don't come home doused in covid.

I am happy to wait my turn (it was no. 4 in the queue, I think) and imo it should be a simple matter of those likely to swamp hospitals get it first. Care home residents/old people not because they are somehow "worthy", but because they are weak. And frontline NHS staff because they are more likely to be infected and then be off sick.

Perhaps they will change their minds again and NHS workers will be at the top again tomorrow....

@Belladonna12 as I say, thank heavens you pointed this out to me, as someone CEV who has had to work, perhaps you've stopped reading the posts and just want to keep pushing that point that at no stage have I disagreed with.

As someone who has been CEV you must also be well aware of the vast differences in circumstances between CEV and CV and why the two are very different in terms of working and guidance during shielding and shouldn't be confused if discussing the groups in those boundaries.

@Belladonna12

Perhaps they will change their minds again and NHS workers will be at the top again tomorrow....

Ha! seriously though, it is very cruel to be promising people the vaccine one day and then taking it away the next (for all those involved, care homes and NHS).

Going by what I've seen on SM (anecdotal I know), the majority of those saying 'I'm not having that vaccine anywhere near me) are in the under-40s age bracket.

Most oldies I know are happy to be 'guinea-pigs' for all those that think it's all been too quick.

@UnlimitedUnspecific

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4097575-NHS-staff-now-come-after-care-homes-for-vaccine

Started a thread specifically for this now.
Predictably, everyone is fatigued of valuing and prioritising the NHS now.

I had read that the logistics of delivering the Pfizer virus initially was harder in care homes so the NHS has been pushed to the top of the list?

That was what the government announced yesterday with a carefully worked-out plan and a list of 53 hospitals etc.

Today - they have totally changed their plan - or rather scrapped yesterday's plan. Not sure they have a new plan for today's news.
Highly doubt it actually. it will probably lead to the reduced number of 800,000 doses sitting in storage for a while whilst they they work out a plan.

It should be prioritised to people over 70 initially, care homes and NHS staff (for obvious reasons), and people with (genuine) underlying health issues. I actually think next should be school children and uni students - schools have been a hotbed for the virus since September, as children don’t always show obvious symptoms, if any at all, which has allowed it to spread. Then after all of the above, the rest of us should get it, by which time I would think there’s probably more than enough vaccines out there for us all.

@Livelovebehappy
it has not been tested on children, so under18s are unlikely to get it until further clinical trials.

There are groups of CEV who won't be getting the vaccine any time soon. For example those with blood and blood cell cancer who are some of the most vulnerable to Covid - none of the vaccines are currently suitable for them according to OH's oncologist as the vaccines havn't been tested on people with such conditions, so it could be many months before those ECV people will get a vaccine.

Their only hope is that the level of infections in the general population around them falls due to most other people having the vaccine, thus reducing their risks of catching it.

[quote Redcherries]@Belladonna12 as I say, thank heavens you pointed this out to me, as someone CEV who has had to work, perhaps you've stopped reading the posts and just want to keep pushing that point that at no stage have I disagreed with.

As someone who has been CEV you must also be well aware of the vast differences in circumstances between CEV and CV and why the two are very different in terms of working and guidance during shielding and shouldn't be confused if discussing the groups in those boundaries.[/quote]
As someone who has been CEV you must also be well aware of the vast differences in circumstances between CEV and CV and why the two are very different in terms of working and guidance during shielding and shouldn't be confused if discussing the groups in those boundaries.

There aren't vast differences between all the individuals in the groups with regard to risk though . There had to be cut off with regards to help people could be given but that doesn't mean that the risk within each group is homogenous .There are people who weren't in the shielding category as defined by the government that still had to be extremely careful. There are also people considered clinically vulnerable originally that now wouldn't be .There were people who were put in the shielding group originally who are no longer on that list. People are individuals with varying risk factors.

The circumstances for those shielded is vastly different to those who are CV, in terms of how we lived and the guidance we were asked to follow, these things should not be confused, which was my point, being told not even take your bins out for 3 months VS be extra careful in the supermarket for example.

You know CEV have a huge online community and we support and talk to each other every day and have since March, so our varying conditions and risks, the constant confusion over the list, the changes to the list as conditions move is well discussed and not something that I am unaware of. Its a bit like teaching a hairdresser how to cut hair, please stop wasting your breath.

none of the vaccines are currently suitable for them according to OH's oncologist as the vaccines havn't been tested on people with such conditions, so it could be many months before those ECV people will get a vaccine

My haem team told me at the start of the week that it is OK for me (I have leukaemia controlled by TKIs) and Blood Cancer UK published an article in which it says the government has stated it is safe for those with blood cancers

bloodcancer.org.uk/news/coronavirus-vaccine-approved-for-use-next-week-our-response/