Vaccine fairness

[MozzchopsThirty]

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

'You can all virtue signal as much as you like, but food producers, farmers, delivery drivers, police, teachers are keeping the country running, keeping us fed, giving the children an education and keeping us safe.
Mildred and Bert age 92 in bluebells home are not'

I can't believe what I'm reading. Your lack of compassion is outstanding OP. Forgetting all the very good points PP have already said, Mildred and Bert have already worked a life of 'teaching, feeding the nation, looking after us all.' Not to mention you know fighting for our freedom in WW2. These are human beings that are highly likely to die if they catch th virus. AND they've been forced into prison like isolation for months, many having died without seeing their families again.

@SnowmanDrinkingSnowballs

Obviously we want all vulnerable people vaccinated but I feel more for a young mum recovering from cancer than an 80 year old who has lived their life.

According to the document linked above, the recovering cancer patient is unlikely to respond as well to the vaccine as a really old person. Those people are bracketed with the 70 to 75 age group, which is pretty early in the vaccine programme.

It’s not about whether you deserve it. And not everyone who lived through the Second World War was a hero! There were criminals, wife beaters, murderers, CFs... just the same as ten years later and ten years after that. Many didn’t live anywhere near bombing. Fil enjoyed ww2 immensely: he lived in poverty with a nasty mother. The war enabled him to escape by joining the Navy and see the world (and no combat at all).

Anyway, it doesn’t matter who had rationing, who received a military cross etc. Under the rules the Yorkshire Ripper would have had the vaccine as he was over 70. It’s about age and vulnerability , not venerating every individual elderly person.

I think individuals on the shielding list should be first and care home residents.

I am carer to my husband, we expect to, and are happy to wait. We are just delighted the vaccine has been developed.

According to the document linked above, the recovering cancer patient is unlikely to respond as well to the vaccine as a really old person

But it does also depend on type of cancer and nature of treatment. Not everyone living with cancer was required to shield. Some forms on cancer treatment regimes are considerably harsher than others and affect the body in different ways

And don’t forget the blood cancers, some of which commonly have regimes very unlike tumour cancers, but which if well controlled may mean a normal response to any non-live vaccine

If you’re talking fairness, the richest 15% of the worlds population have ordered 80% of the vaccine. I would be happy to pay for mine if it could go to helping poorer countries be vaccinated.

I believe the COVAX initiative is supposed to mitigate this, although there are varying opinions on how successful it is likely to be.

My order would be all NHS workers/carers, all over 80 then anyone with a health issue regardless of age.

Everyone else healthy thereafter.

I've had covid. I have a number of auto immune conditions. I'm now left with long covid on top of all my other illnesses. I'm early forties with a child at home. I still need to work to provide the essentials. Someone retired who is healthy is not trying to feed their children.

I think the list is too simplistic and age is a very crude measure of need.

Of course it is simplistic - but given that it seems good supplies of the vaccine will be available, while you’re faffing around pondering the perfect solution we can get on with actually vaccinating people.

*Sargass0
Bert and Mildred have had long lives. We closed down the country for them, lost our livelihoods, our homes, messed about with our childrens' education & given ourselves a future tax burden and and national debt the likes of which hasn't been seen since WW2

People like Bert & Mildred were the generation that sacrificed their lives in order for any us of to have the freedoms that we have today
Not only that but the WW2 debt was finally paid off in 2006. Not only did Bert and Mildred pay that off for their entire working lives but their children did too. All that money because a decent society protects its most vulnerable. I really hope you don’t really believe this fascist bollocks, OP.*

This.

Someone retired who is healthy is not trying to feed their children.

No, but they may be the sandwich generation - caring for their elderly parents, their grown up (addition needs) children, and providing day care for grandchildren, whose parents are working full time.

@Sirzy

Whatever order the pick then people will complain.

I think getting care homes and NHS staff vaccinated is rightly a key priority as it allows for things to get back to normal for them a bit more.

Personally I would like to see unpaid carers up there in the priority list but it doesn’t look like that will happen

This.

@DarkMintChocolate

Someone retired who is healthy is not trying to feed their children.

No, but they may be the sandwich generation - caring for their elderly parents, their grown up (addition needs) children, and providing day care for grandchildren, whose parents are working full time.

Exactly I have a parent with dementia and provide weekly child care for my working daughter. Sometimes I wish I was doing my hobbies, pottering in the garden and going on nice holidays, but sadly it's not so.

With the decline of the sahm and the rise of working mothers, it's people like us who are keeping the cogs of commerce moving. By providing care for the elderly and children we are saving the country money every day and exhausting ourselves in the process.

Some of the ageism on the internet and in real life is disgusting.

I actually think they’ve made a decent call on the list, aside from a provision for BAME in some form.

I personally don’t want to get into a bun fight for a vaccine. The older folks don’t have as much time left as most of us, so they should be able to see their families without the fear of corona.

I wonder if once they’ve done phase 1 of this, whether we will be broadly released from the restrictions and told to make our own sensible choices while we wait for our vaccine?

It’s going to cut out 99% mortality.

Honestly some people are ludicrous when it comes to being unable to see the positive.

@LolaButt

I actually think they’ve made a decent call on the list, aside from a provision for BAME in some form.

I personally don’t want to get into a bun fight for a vaccine. The older folks don’t have as much time left as most of us, so they should be able to see their families without the fear of corona.

I wonder if once they’ve done phase 1 of this, whether we will be broadly released from the restrictions and told to make our own sensible choices while we wait for our vaccine?

It's the older people who take up the beds etc in the hospitals, so it's right that they get vaccinated asap to free up NHS resources for everyone else, particularly those who've had their treatments/tests cancelled and delayed.

As for restrictions, I don't really see much relaxation for a few months yet, even when the highest risk group has been vaccinated. Younger people will still be catching it at the same rate, needing time off work for isolation, etc., so it makes sense to keep some restrictions, just to keep things moving, i.e. businesses, schools/universities, etc. I'd guess that we'd need at least 50% of the population to be vaccinated before we can remove all restrictions. In reality, it'll be a gradual thing, with the highest risk activities restricted/prohibited until maybe Summer 21. Although, I'd expect quite significant restrictions removed at Easter, such as universities back to face to face teaching (assuming the vulnerable teaching staff have been vaccinated).

@LolaButt

I actually think they’ve made a decent call on the list, aside from a provision for BAME in some form.

I personally don’t want to get into a bun fight for a vaccine. The older folks don’t have as much time left as most of us, so they should be able to see their families without the fear of corona.

I wonder if once they’ve done phase 1 of this, whether we will be broadly released from the restrictions and told to make our own sensible choices while we wait for our vaccine?

Do we actually know who is BAME, though?

I mean, if you are registered with the NHS, you have to have your correct DOB as some medication doses are age-dependent. How accurate is the ethic background recording?

I mean, if the little box even is filled in - how many people just fall under Other? What is Other?

Also, some of us with interesting backgrounds can sometimes "pass for" white, even though we're not.

Age alone isn't perfect, but it seems to allow for fewer ways to screw up.

Christ, maybe we should have just shot all the care home residents in March. That would have been kinder than leaving them completely isolated from their friends and family for the best part of a year 'for their own protection', then leaving them to die anyway because they're no longer economically productive.

I hope some of you remember this thread when you're in your 70s and 80s, if you make it that far.

Consideration for BAME was made in the document.

It (as I would have expected) a well supported, well-reasoned, list of priorities based on the relevant factors and demographics. And, yes, they've looked at ethnicity, professions, ECV risk etc.

What is interesting, and may be a factor later (MUCH later) in the programme, is that because men are at greater risk than women when all other factors are levelled out, it is potentially going to be the case that healthy young women (no health issues, not a carer etc sub say, 40-45) will be the very last group vaccinated. If this is the case, then the group most likely to have been effected negatively on an economic level by all the lockdowns, are also the group now proving they were the least in direct need of that protection to their health, and will be the last to receive individual protection via vaccination.

What is the reasoning for BAME communities?

I am life meh about it !
For 1 people who were told to shield are lower in the list than over 65. Yet you didn’t need to shield for just being 65.
Do I feel for those people who were told to shield not leave their houses for even fresh air for months then being bumped down the list to 6th !

My daughter is still on the list but she is 7 so she isn’t even able to have it. However I won’t get one as a carer for god knows how long.
So we will just continue the way we are.

I think because the vaccines are currently only proven to stop serious (or any) illness rather than transmission, the government's order largely makes sense - give it those who work with those needing healthcare and care as ill, elderly and disabled people need them to look after them - and then in order of clinical need.

If it had been proven to stop transmission, I would say that students should get it before home-working 40 somethings, for example.

@cologne4711

I think because the vaccines are currently only proven to stop serious (or any) illness rather than transmission, the government's order largely makes sense - give it those who work with those needing healthcare and care as ill, elderly and disabled people need them to look after them - and then in order of clinical need.

If it had been proven to stop transmission, I would say that students should get it before home-working 40 somethings, for example.

Agreed. It is proven to prevent serious symptoms. Students mostly don’t have serious symptoms anyway, so what would be the point in prioritising them?

I'm also a big fan of the 80-20 rule - ie vaccinate 20% of the population and you resolve 80% of the problem. The rest of us can be vaccinated in time.

Students mostly don’t have serious symptoms anyway, so what would be the point in prioritising them

Because it transmits fast among care homes, adds (a lot) to the statistics for a particular location and can result in tier-related lockdowns. Stop students getting it (and prisoners) and you reduce the raw numbers.