Vaccine fairness

[MozzchopsThirty]

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

Not only that but the WW2 debt was finally paid off in 2006. Not only did Bert and Mildred pay that off for their entire working lives but their children did too. All that money because a decent society protects its most vulnerable.

But it doesn’t matter what Bert and Mildred did or didn’t do. It doesn’t matter if they paid off the WW2 debt or ran workhouses for children. There’s no such thing as deserving healthcare or not deserving healthcare. The only thing that matters is how likely they are to need an NHS bed and ventilator if they contract Covid. Because it’s all about the NHS. It’s only ever been about the NHS. And that’s why Bert and Mildred should get it first.

Of course it is @Buddytheelf85. My point, in response to a pp, is still valid.

And my examples-of much younger people who are extremely clinically vulnerable-are people who are going to need a bed and a ventilator if they contract it. Maybe more likely than an older person with no clinical vulnerabilities except for the fact they're over 80.

Unpaid carers and those receiving carers allowance are priority six with the CV. No idea how they identify these people though.
It is easy to identify carers in receipt of Carer's Allowance. DWP will have them recorded in a database.

I had an flu Jab yesterday on the basis of being an unpaid carer. Although my relative's GP surgery know I am their carer I have never officially informed my GP surgery (in the next town) of this. However, it came up in a conversation a couple of years ago and the doctor evidently entered it onto a list/register of sorts.

*Bert and Mildred could make the choice to decline the NHS bed and ventilator.

It’s not being forced upon them*

Why the fuck should they? They’ve got as much right to it as anyone else. Jesus, there are some pieces of work here today.

@IwishIwasyoda

I think the list is too simplistic and age is a very crude measure of need. No problem at all with NHS staff and care home residents going first but think that the clinically vulnerable in other categories should be prioritised sooner. It is also crazy that my MIL age 81 will get a vaccine before my Dad (age 78) who is much more vulnerable with asthma and diabetes.

But it would take longer to go into many millions of specific individual situations, and time is of the essence. Age is a pretty clear cut easily implemented criteria and is a really massive factor in Covid risk (IIRC the average age of Covid fatalities in the UK is 82, and that's pretty standard for the western world). So its not perfect but better than the alternatives overall.

Also for whats it worth, I 100% expect to be back of the queue as a healthy 40 year old with no known risk factors, and I'm fine with that. I'd still be fine with it if I worked in a much more public-facing role too. People like me are just not the issue, except in so far as vaccinating us contributes to the protection of vulnerable demographies.

Oh, yes, in those troubled times, what better idea than to give a limited resource to people depending on race. That does not sound like a recipe for disaster at all.

But sarcasm aside, I am fine not getting the vaccine. I go to work outside of home and commute, but I had covid (isolated for 3 weeks) and was lucky to have a very mild version. I consider myself a very very low priority and prefer that a vulnerable elderly or a frontline (an actual one) NHS employee get it.

NikeDeLaSwoosh Make sure your Do not resuscitate order is engraved on your medical file. Or tattoo it somewhere visible. Just for your peace of mind.

Any order of vaccination will be seen as unfair by many. Much as I consider this to be the worst government in history, on this one they really cannot win.

It's about saving the NHS and saving lives not about how important you think you are.

@MozzchopsThirty

AIBU to think we should be vaccinating all those of working age, BAME communities, younger vulnerable and healthcare workers first? Not in order of age

You don’t happen to fall into one of the categories you deem as being a priority, do you OP?

Personally, I couldn’t live with myself, knowing that the extra years of life, over and above my natural lifespan, I had clawed for myself will directly cause hardship to my descendants

Very easy to say, wait until you get there.

Anyway, you reckon Bert and Mildred are boomers, ie between 56 and 75 - that’s not over and beyond a natural lifespan.

Personally, I couldn’t live with myself, knowing that the extra years of life, over and above my natural lifespan, I had clawed for myself will directly cause hardship to my descendants. what an absolute load of virtue signalling bollocks.

You would really set up an advanced directive stating that you didn’t want ventilator treatment ever? I mean you’ll be unconscious in the event you need to be ventilated anyway so you won’t get to make that decision at the time, oh, apart from maybe as you lose consciousness, and in your final moments of fear when you have no idea what is going to happen to you, you would have the thinking to say “I really think that others should be saved over me?”

What a crock of crap. But it’s easy to spout that kind of bullshit from behind a keyboard isn’t it?

I do think the cev should be nearer the top of the list. Lots of them are younger people living in houses with children who go to school, or they or their partners work and might be unable to work from home. A lot of older people who are able to keep themselves to themselves will be vaccinated before these younger people who are coming into contact with more risk. Having said that as long as they get on with the vaccination program we should be able to vaccinate everyone that we need to in a few months.

I agree with the government guidelines as per the BBC news tonight @MozzchopsThirty

arghhhhhhhhhhhh this thread is doing my head in.

Yeah, @dreamingofsun fuck those near death care home oldsters who’ve been locked up with no visitors for months and months and are at by far the greatest risk.

Charming

JVIC

Have a read of this.

If you want to look at it in a slightly less caring way, reducing cases in the elderly population helps all of us enormously because (without putting too much of a fine point in it) it frees up hospital beds & NHS staff. It reduces transmission in the community.

It also looks like carers & NHS staff will be getting it first anyway because they're making a lot of it needing to be stored in -70 which isn't the total truth.

I can't work out their angle on this incorrect slant, but it'll all be one clear I'm sure.

I have NO problem with carers & NHS being right at the top of the list, but I think care homes residents should be first.

The 'Bert and Mildred' stuff on this thread is horrifying and tbh I'm surprised that MN hasn't taken down this thread given how close it is getting to actual eugenics

I do think the cev should be nearer the top of the list. Lots of them are younger people living in houses with children who go to school, or they or their partners work and might be unable to work from home. A lot of older people who are able to keep themselves to themselves will be vaccinated before these younger people who are coming into contact with more risk. Having said that as long as they get on with the vaccination program we should be able to vaccinate everyone that we need to in a few months. but it’s not about individual protection. It’s about the wider consequence.

So, an elderly person catches COVID and gives it to their carer. Their carer cares for three other people, but doesn’t know they have COVId when they see them. So the carer transmits COVID to those three people. Because they’re all over 80, three out of four of them contract serious symptoms and are rushed into hospital and placed either on ventilators or on oxygen. This means that A, that oxygen/ventilator isn’t available to help someone else with a different condition, and B, the ward they are admitted to has to be re-assigned as a COVID ward, thus taking a whole ward out of the hospital’s functionality group.

In terms of the younger person, they catch COVID and while they are vulnerable they alone are vulnerable, and are admitted to hospital.So the impact on everyone is a 3rd of what it would be in the first example.Added to which there simply isn’t a way to assess the younger need. Plenty of sev people are also able to keep themselves to themselves, so how will they know who has a family and who doesn’t? The logistics to establish that are just going to take up more time. Time which could be spent vaccinating and getting those people closer to the vaccine anyway.