To think I wasn't being a dick?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

I split up with exH 2 years ago, we have 2DC aged 4&8 and when they're at ex's they still see their cousins and aunty, my exSIL. ExSIL has only contacted me once since the split - to remind me to get her son (DN) a present (I refused said it was Ex's job now) - never checked to see I was ok after her brother had an affair. Anyway, her DS is 7 and over lockdown I allowed DD (8) to use my phone to face call him and play Minecraft with him at the same time on my iPad.

DN has his own iPad but he uses his parent's Facebook messenger accounts to face call DD.

Now we're back to normality, and school, I let DD have 3 hours in total on a weekend, split however she likes from Friday evening to Sunday. She used most of it on Friday after school, so that's her time used up. But DN has called (which came through to both my phone and iPad) 23 times. I didn't answer either as they've been in another room most of the day. I also had nuermous messenger messages like "DD call me now" and "Why aren't you calling you're upsetting me". I did reply sorry DD won't be having screen time today, but he still kept calling.

Anyway, I texted exSIL on the number I still have for her and said "Hi it's Glummy, can you stop DN from calling my messenger please, DD isn't allowed her iPad today and he's called 23 times today". She replied saying "OK but there's no need to be a dick about it he just misses DD that's all" I don't think what I said was dickish at all. I'm tempted to reply and ask what she means. I haven't yet, but it's really bothered me. There's no backstory we got on fine when I was married to her brother but she firmly nailed her colours to the mast when we split (except when she wanted her son to get a birthday present, apparently that was still my job and if left to ex he wouldn't have got one )

"maybe be less rapey"

er..yeah..interesting way of putting it 🤔

Because regardless of what he's doing with it, I don't believe children should be in there seeing grown men peeing. Facing the wall or not.
What is it about peeing you find so offensive? I presume you do it yourself.

@choli

Because regardless of what he's doing with it, I don't believe children should be in there seeing grown men peeing. Facing the wall or not. What is it about peeing you find so offensive? I presume you do it yourself.

I've already said a number of times it's about males having their penises out

What is it that women do outside of cubicles that has to be private?

Maybe men want a male only place where they don't encounter a woman....

That’s the men’s toilets isn’t it?

I've already said a number of times it's about males having their penises out

You said it was about men urinating. When I said men would be facing the wall i.e. with penis not visible you said it wasn’t the point. Is it the implicated penis that is the problem? If a penis pees in a urinal but no one can see it, does it cause offence?

Oh I wondered how this thread managed to move from an issue with 1 child having a tantrum because he wanted to play with his cousin on minecraft to a penis wagging discussion

@GlummyMcGlummerson, I’d like to say thank you for non apologetic position on the role of women.
It’s nice to read and hear women actually stating their boundaries and refusing to lander to à manchild attitude.

FWIW, my attitude now is ‘what would a man do/expect? That’s how I am aiming at. What would a woman do/expect? That’s how I’m expecting a man to behave’
Which means I’m expecting men to be able to buy presents, look after their own dcs and basically”y take some responsibility.
I’m setting myself the task to not be a doormat anymore and put my own well-being at the same level than the ones of the men around me. Because you’re right that the question would not have happened if your DH had been buying presents for his side of the family right from the start.

Re toilets....

I think many women would be uncomfortable to have their Dd going to a men’s loo with their dad. Yes they are often disgusting (why but why? Aren’t men actually able to pee wo putting some everywhere? I mean they usually manage that at home no? My DH and teens certainly do).

And yes there is also the RISK of encountering some less than desirable behaviour, even when their dad present.
Let’s be honest there. I think men know very well what other men and do and how they can behave. (Yes yes with the caveat that it’s not all men blablabla). On paper, the only thing anyone should see is a back. In reality.... it seems that quite a few men feel it’s safer to take their little girl to the women’s toilet. The easy answer is to duck the issue the behaviour of (some) men and go in the women’s.
The most helpful answer would be for men to acknowledge the behaviour of (some) men. And for them to refuse to accept it.

Basically the issue that is nice men are been complicit of the not so nice men by refusing to stand up against those vile behaviour. This would make everyine life safer and better. Women’s life in particular.

So Glummy, any updates? Has SIL responded?

@CalishataFolkart

Maybe men want a male only place where they don't encounter a woman....

That’s the men’s toilets isn’t it?

Yes, but posters are insisting girl children should be going in there.

@PerveenMistry she did respond after the last one to say DN “won’t be bothering DD any more”. Then tonight she messaged again to ask if he could ring her and play Minecraft! DD said no 😬 as she’s playing with her brother - but I did tell exSIL that and arranged a time for tomorrow instead in DD’s agreement

Ok so I did the whole men in toilets thing on another thread last week so I’ve stayed away form it but I will say this...

If men in men’s toilets are harmful, and something for little girls to be feared - even when they are with their own father, a man who would stand a fighting chance against another man - then why should we believe the very same men who come into women’s toilets (where, let’s face it, the vast majority of women and ALL children wouldn’t stand a fighting chance) are perfectly safe and not interested in doing harm to anybody?

There’s no penis waving happening in men’s toilets. Little girls, like little boys, don’t need protecting from seeing men’s backs. Furthermore, let’s stop treating little girls like delicate precious flowers - if a little boy can see a man sanding in a urinal, so can a little girl. Boys don’t have some sort of inbuilt coping mechanism that girls don’t have when it comes to things like.

And one last thing - my DD is 8 so goes to the toilet on her own. If she’s in the women’s alone, or with other women, she and I - and most people on this thread - agree that she is a perfectly safe. Until that is, she’s all alone and your Nigel comes in with his little girl. Then suddenly she’s basically in the men’s toilet, but without a parent to protect her. Why so that fair? Why do her rights come second?

Just get your men to take their DD’s into the men’s loo FFS and stop riding roughshod over the rights of women and girls.

Oh and I not sure what kind of toilets you lot go into but the women’s loos I’ve been in I’m sure can give the men’s a run for their money in terms of being disgusting. Went to Sainsbury’s loo last week and there was a used bloody sanitary towel sitting on top of the sanitary towel bin

The toilets at work had bloodied toilet tissue on the floor today 🤢

Oh and I forgot to say - in the last message to exSIL where I said DD would play tomorrow evening, I told her to get in touch with exH from now on if there are any problems with my kids - even if it’s a problem that happened on my time. I’m not dealing with her shit anymore. ExH was here at the time picking the kids up for his weekend (got a call from the school as he hadn’t picked them up and wasn’t answering his phone, bloody prick, apparently there’s snow on the A66 that’s made him 3 hours late and he couldn’t POSSIBLY have let anyone know(sorry for mini rant but FFS)) and agreed with this.

Her reply: “Thats fine”

Yes, exSIL, I know it’s fine

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Ok so I did the whole men in toilets thing on another thread last week so I’ve stayed away form it but I will say this...

If men in men’s toilets are harmful, and something for little girls to be feared - even when they are with their own father, a man who would stand a fighting chance against another man - then why should we believe the very same men who come into women’s toilets (where, let’s face it, the vast majority of women and ALL children wouldn’t stand a fighting chance) are perfectly safe and not interested in doing harm to anybody?

There’s no penis waving happening in men’s toilets. Little girls, like little boys, don’t need protecting from seeing men’s backs. Furthermore, let’s stop treating little girls like delicate precious flowers - if a little boy can see a man sanding in a urinal, so can a little girl. Boys don’t have some sort of inbuilt coping mechanism that girls don’t have when it comes to things like.

And one last thing - my DD is 8 so goes to the toilet on her own. If she’s in the women’s alone, or with other women, she and I - and most people on this thread - agree that she is a perfectly safe. Until that is, she’s all alone and your Nigel comes in with his little girl. Then suddenly she’s basically in the men’s toilet, but without a parent to protect her. Why so that fair? Why do her rights come second?

Just get your men to take their DD’s into the men’s loo FFS and stop riding roughshod over the rights of women and girls.

Glummy, I've been pretty good to you on this thread and defended you to others. Do not tell me I'm riding roughshod over women's rights.

I don't agree with th rest of your post but I'm not even debating it in those grounds.

@Wheresmykimchi but don’t you see my point about my 8yo? Don’t you think it would be very intimidating for her to have a stranger man in the toilet and no other adult? Compared to his little girl, who could’ve gone into the men’s with her dad there to protect her?

Re you being good to me - yes but my comment re riding roughshod wasn’t necessarily aimed at you other on this thread have taken a similar stance.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that it really doesn’t send a good signal to a little girl that
A. She’s too precious to be exposed to men’s backs, and
B. Her dad is so incapable of protecting her that he has to go into a place that’s not for him, in order to keep her safe

[quote GlummyMcGlummerson]@Wheresmykimchi but don’t you see my point about my 8yo? Don’t you think it would be very intimidating for her to have a stranger man in the toilet and no other adult? Compared to his little girl, who could’ve gone into the men’s with her dad there to protect her?

Re you being good to me - yes but my comment re riding roughshod wasn’t necessarily aimed at you other on this thread have taken a similar stance.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that it really doesn’t send a good signal to a little girl that
A. She’s too precious to be exposed to men’s backs, and
B. Her dad is so incapable of protecting her that he has to go into a place that’s not for him, in order to keep her safe[/quote]
Perhaps given the hand wringing on here of w man being in a woman's toilet this would be good preparation for your 8 year old. Man's toilets are safe until you turn 18 at which which point all men are terrifying and horrible and must not come in your bathroom at any cost

Perhaps given the hand wringing on here of w man being in a woman's toilet this would be good preparation for your 8 year old. Man's toilets are safe until you turn 18 at which which point all men are terrifying and horrible and must not come in your bathroom at any cost

I highly doubt any girl over the age of 10 goes in with her dad to the toilets, as you well know.

No one is talking about women going into men’s toilets either. We don’t want to. But apparently lots of people want to shove men into women’s toilets, in the name of tHe chILDrEn.

It is most certainly safer for a little girl to go into the men’s with her dad than it is for a man to come into the women’s, where there could be children, vulnerable women or women whose religion forbids them from being in spaces with strange men.

See how easily the answer is defaulted to “women - give something up” when men come up against the slightest challenge?

No idea what you mean for preparing my DD - for what exactly?! Having her rights and safe spaces taken away?

Not sure how the toilet argument happened but on that aside I let my 8yo DS toilet alone in the mens (heart in mouth first few times maybe - but go into the mens with him? Pfft no. I talked him through possible scenarios and was right outside - part of his growing up is to attend the appropriate toilets and manage any difficulties if only men would make the fucking effort to make their toilets safer then there would be less issues all round

But reason for posting was I worried a lot about my parenting (single mum lots of judgement) and yet I was right in many ways - not all but parents are humans and we fuck up.

Point being I fucking admire the OP for having strong boundaries. I used to be nearly always consumed with guilt, single mum no job (lazy) single mum with job (neglectful) with boundaries (too strict) with less rules (too lax)

Well @GlummyMcGlummerson I see all the judgement and frankly even if my parenting may differ from yours, I bloody admire you for standing up for yourself and your family and your right to have boundaries and enforce them

I see men in my family and others get away with the enormous amount of shite they expect women to deal with and I would be more trampled on if I hadn’t seen strong women like OP on MN.
Just bc some men can be lazy shites doesn’t mean we have to pick up their slack - and indeed what bloody incentive do they have to do better if we do it all for them.

You don’t say ‘Hey kid, homework too hard - let me do that for you’ nope. You assist maybe (bc child) but ypu don’t do it for them, because they need to do it themselves.

Men aren’t children and have responsibilities like any other adult. Doing shit for them that they should be doing themselves helps no-one, least of all the children who rightly might point out that if daddy can’t manage adulthood and mummy has to do it for him - why should they even try to grow, won’t mummy do for them like they do for daddy?

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Perhaps given the hand wringing on here of w man being in a woman's toilet this would be good preparation for your 8 year old. Man's toilets are safe until you turn 18 at which which point all men are terrifying and horrible and must not come in your bathroom at any cost

I highly doubt any girl over the age of 10 goes in with her dad to the toilets, as you well know.

No one is talking about women going into men’s toilets either. We don’t want to. But apparently lots of people want to shove men into women’s toilets, in the name of tHe chILDrEn.

It is most certainly safer for a little girl to go into the men’s with her dad than it is for a man to come into the women’s, where there could be children, vulnerable women or women whose religion forbids them from being in spaces with strange men.

See how easily the answer is defaulted to “women - give something up” when men come up against the slightest challenge?

No idea what you mean for preparing my DD - for what exactly?! Having her rights and safe spaces taken away?

Yeh whatever OP. Bored of your agenda.

Sorry to add to the derailment Glummy. You’re doing great work with your ex-SIL.

CalishataFolkart
Maybe men want a male only place where they don't encounter a woman....

That’s the men’s toilets isn’t it?

Yes, but posters are insisting girl children should be going in there.

Girl children are not women. We’re talking about which toilet it is appropriate for an adult to take their child in terms of comfort/safety for all concerned. From what I understand you think it is like this:

Woman takes girl into Ladies toilet.
Woman takes boy into Ladies toilet.
Man takes girl into Ladies toilet.
Man takes boy into Men’s toilet.

The sole reason being that girls who are too young to go to the toilet unaccompanied should not be in the presence of a urinating penis even if they can’t see it.

We need more cubicles people. Just cubicles all the way.

Replying to Kimchi there. Sorry, should have made that clear.

@CalishataFolkart

Sorry to add to the derailment Glummy. You’re doing great work with your ex-SIL.

CalishataFolkart
Maybe men want a male only place where they don't encounter a woman....

That’s the men’s toilets isn’t it?

Yes, but posters are insisting girl children should be going in there.

Girl children are not women. We’re talking about which toilet it is appropriate for an adult to take their child in terms of comfort/safety for all concerned. From what I understand you think it is like this:

Woman takes girl into Ladies toilet.
Woman takes boy into Ladies toilet.
Man takes girl into Ladies toilet.
Man takes boy into Men’s toilet.

The sole reason being that girls who are too young to go to the toilet unaccompanied should not be in the presence of a urinating penis even if they can’t see it.

We need more cubicles people. Just cubicles all the way.

I said about 16 pages ago that my one and only issue with the men's is the lack of cubicles.

@Wheresmykimchi I don’t have an agenda, just a different opinion to you re toilets. Which isn’t even what the thread is about (and yes I’m aware I made the the digression for my sins 😂) but hey-no, FWIW I’ve enjoyed engaging with you on all this.

*hey ho