Anybody else DISGUSTED at the anti lockdown protestors!?

[Duemarch2021]

It makes me so angry that people are protesting about lockdown... yes its frustrating but it's being done for a reason... to try and prevent as many deaths as there would be without a lockdown... they are selfishly spreading covid and yhe police have to put themselves out there and risk their lifes to stop the gatherings! 😠 What do they think will happen!? That government will say ok- ok you win... go wild, have fun and mingle lets just forget covid now!?.....Does this make anybody else absolutely fuming at the human race!!!?

@Flaxmeadow

maureenfrombarnsley How can you possibly presume to state what "they" think? Have you spoken to all of them? You insist you're in favour of protests, yet continue to denigrate the participants, even when people have explained to you the perfectly valid reasons for their position

Well it would be helpful if they gave some indication of what they think themselves wouldn't it. Do they have a website, some kind of manifesto. A solution

I haven't denigrated them. I've repeatedly said they have a right to peaceful protest, within the law, and that their voices should be heard

The only reasonable certainty one can draw is they don't agree with lockdown. Lots of people don't. To my original point, if everyone agreed with you, we wouldn't NEED draconian laws and fines because the majority would choose to act in their own interest and stay in.

I think what you're saying is that people should be left to decide for themselves?

By your own logic you most definitely are a recession denier because you are in favour of the very measures which cause it, therefore you must be in denial (you must see how easy it is to invert your 'covid-denier' rationale?)

But letting this damn virus run free would destroy the economy as well. Not only that, it would collpase vital services

Your critique of The WHO makes my point for me. 9 months on and there is absolutely NO consensus. All the more justification for rigorous debate.

I agree, yes debate.

There is consensus on lockdown. Most countries are using very similar tactics. Even Sweden has now had use stricter lockdown. This is science based. I dont see how all these scientists, the world over, can be wrong

So you're happy to hear their voice, but only if they gather the resource for a manifesto or website, while battling job losses/mental health struggles. You did denigrate them by minimizing their cause to a simple case of 'covid denial'. Since it would oppose lockdown, I assume any such manifesto should automatically be dismissed as 'covid denier' propaganda anyway.

I don't profess to have the answers to the covid problem, nobody does. But I can well understand the protests. The virus has a 99% survival rate, and we're entering the biggest economic collapse in 200 years and a 145% increase in suicide rates. You worry about the NHS but what is certain is that it's is solely funded by the economy and business - so we won't do it any good by actively destroying the basis of its funding.

PrincessNutNuts I think the protesters have been manipulated and lied to by the same bullshitters who manipulated and lied to them over Brexit. Their aim seems to be to to try to destabilise our country. Apparently Brexit hasn't brought us low enough for their liking, and they want more British people to die

I disagree about Brexit. I think there were legitimate arguments on both sides whether to leave or stay. But this is different

I don't see the lockdown protests as being party political in any way. There seems to be support from all sorts of people, rich, poor, black white, young old, stoned hippies, straight heads. Right wing, left wing. All kinds people. They're partisan about lockdown but that's all.

I'm trying to think of a name for them. Those who disagree with them would be a "lockdowner" i suppose, but what would they be, anyone?

So you're happy to hear their voice, but only if they gather the resource for a manifesto or website,

Well it would help

I'm not against protests, but they need to be clear about their aims

I don't profess to have the answers to the covid problem, nobody does.

What do you mean "nobody does" of course they do. We have scientists and specialists who have studied it for decades

But I can well understand the protests. The virus has a 99% survival rate,

That isn't the point.

If tens of thousands, even potentially hundreds of thousands, of people all start dying in a relatively short space of time. How are we supposed to cope with it? On top of that, there would be many more requiring medical treatment, also in a short space of time. Many of them doctors, nurses, police, social workers, food retail staff. How would the country cope with it?

and we're entering the biggest economic collapse in 200 years

No. Since the war 1939-45

and a 145% increase in suicide rates.

Not sure if this is true but what happens to those with mental health problems when the services collapse. Their psychiatric nurse, their medication.

You worry about the NHS but what is certain is that it's is solely funded by the economy and business - so we won't do it any good by actively destroying the basis of its funding

No we won't but at the moment it's only just functioning and that's with lockdown. I live in a postcode area that has recently had transmissions of 900 per 100,000. Neighbouring post code areas too.

Not aimed at you but It's all very well people who don't live in deprived urban areas to say "oh well, its not that bad, I dont know anyone who's had it anyway, I'm not scared" but they don't see what's happening where most people live. To be blunt, they dont know or hear about people dying.

I think what IS disgusting isn't protests but people's lifesaving treatment being stopped while Nightingale Hospitals are empty. And politicians who are flirting with mandatory vaxxing against people's wishes. So yes - all power to the protestors. And shame on the media for not covering them properly or even allowing comments on the story as in the Guardian.

@Flaxmeadow

I don't profess to have the answers to the covid problem, nobody does.

What do you mean "nobody does" of course they do. We have scientists and specialists who have studied it for decades

But I can well understand the protests. The virus has a 99% survival rate,

That isn't the point.

If tens of thousands, even potentially hundreds of thousands, of people all start dying in a relatively short space of time. How are we supposed to cope with it? On top of that, there would be many more requiring medical treatment, also in a short space of time. Many of them doctors, nurses, police, social workers, food retail staff. How would the country cope with it?

and we're entering the biggest economic collapse in 200 years

No. Since the war 1939-45

and a 145% increase in suicide rates.

Not sure if this is true but what happens to those with mental health problems when the services collapse. Their psychiatric nurse, their medication.

You worry about the NHS but what is certain is that it's is solely funded by the economy and business - so we won't do it any good by actively destroying the basis of its funding

No we won't but at the moment it's only just functioning and that's with lockdown. I live in a postcode area that has recently had transmissions of 900 per 100,000. Neighbouring post code areas too.

Not aimed at you but It's all very well people who don't live in deprived urban areas to say "oh well, its not that bad, I dont know anyone who's had it anyway, I'm not scared" but they don't see what's happening where most people live. To be blunt, they dont know or hear about people dying.

First lockdown had me having visuals of how I wanted to suicide. I had the worst anxiety Ever. It triggered a manic episode where I got pregnant. I lost me job due to covid. I lost a lot of weight (actually a good thing).

I had been seeking treatment for my long term mental health for the previous five years. Started treatment in July. I’m still waiting for a medication review. The NHS is on its arse and having a huge event such as everyone being told to fear a virus, shops shut, not being able to travel...: it makes people like me depend on services more. I think the first lockdown has had a irreversible affect on my mental health and I I have been looking at options. There was zero reason to shut small businesses. My hairdresser is a single person and sees two clients a day. My choice. Hairdressers choice.

a 145% increase in suicide rates

fullfact.org/online/suicide-coronavirus-deaths/

Flaxmeadow

Of course nobody has the answers, or we'd all be living happy and normally, covid-free, or at least in harmonious acceptance of a universal set of measures.

There are thousands of scientists who have signed the Great Barrington declaration. You might choose to side with SAGE, but there's no single scientific view as to how we manage this problem. BJ's own MPs are threatening to revolt next week. Many countries face increasing protests. The debate rages on social media. You yourself have been highly critical of the WTO. There's no one view.

You can cite anecdotal evidence and I don't deny it's tough, but the fact is the NHS always struggles at this time of year - and relative to the same period last year fewer beds are occupied on average.
Data shows cases were falling BEFORE the implementation of the latest lockdown, which was called on a false worst-case premise of 4K deaths per day (which no country in the world has come anywhere near).
The Nightingales stand empty.
The ICU death rate is half that of the peak flu season last year.
The COVID survival rate is 99%+ and average age of death is 82.
Data shows key workers are at no greater risk from covid death, if they were we'd obviously have no supermarket staff left at this point.

2020 IS the worst recession on record. 2.1m jobs projected to go next year. Major companies entering administration on the daily.
My postal code has 50 cases per 100k and yet all of hospitality is closed during the most important month of the UK economy. That is INSANE. You will not save the NHS by actively collapsing the economy that underpins it, while storing up no end of other health problems for when things return to normal (if they ever do).

The civil liberties issue is a genuine one.

If you can honestly still insist you have no empathy for the viewpoint of the protestors, some of whom are suffering extreme hardship for the sake of a virus that poses virtually no risk to them, then we're both wasting our time arguing it.

The protests are happening. It's legal, and thankfully they don't need a manifesto (I've yet to see Boris' COVID manifesto, actually). I fully support the right to protest, no conditions attached. All the best!

Those fullfact figures on suicide aren't actually very reassuring - they just really indicate it's too early to tell as suicide stats were only available up to June 2020 - very early in the pandemic - still plenty of leeway given by companies - not so many out of business, etc.

Who is fullfact funded by? Not a large vaccine manufacturer I hope?

I honestly think that most people don’t realise how very much worse it could get.

Most people don’t know anyone that’s died of covid, but this would very likely change if things got to the stage where there weren’t enough beds/ventilators. Imagine if we reached the stage where contracting covid could quite easily lead to death and it was rife in the community. People would change their tune once they all knew a few workmates or acquaintances who’d died and knew that they might have to face dying at home while waiting for a bed should they catch it.

How will the government know what people's opinions on this is if they don't protest?

f I wanted to live in a controlling dictatorship I can think of much better options than the UK

So no I don't agree, let's continue to have the right to protest.

Noname99 - I thought capacity had been increased with the provision of lots of Covid hospitals around the country which still aren't being used.

I am more concerned about the number of operations and other treatments that have been cancelled and the impact of that decision on people's lives.

Noname99 - I thought capacity had been increased with the provision of lots of Covid hospitals around the country which still aren't being used.

For about the millionth time....the problem is lack of staff.

How will the government know what people's opinions on this is if they don't protest? If I wanted to live in a controlling dictatorship I can think of much better options than the UK. So no I don't agree, let's continue to have the right to protest.

I agree - better to rather go live in a lovely warm sunny dictatorship than rainy old England but better still no dictatorships at all and let's all uphold the right to protest so the government knows people are pissed off.

For endangering themselves and others and believing that reality is a conspiracy and their conspiracy theories are reality I think they should all be sectioned.

@mumsyandtiredzz

I don’t think it’s just about people wanting to ‘mingle and have fun’ though, people are losing their jobs and their livelihoods, dying of cancer that could have been treated, spiralling into terrible mental health. I’m not saying I agree with them, the situation is what it is and it’s crap either way, but I can understand why tensions are beginning to run high and some are starting to crack.

Yes I agree with this. People arent protesting against lockdown because we are facing economic devastation.

No , the right to protest should be sacrosanct.
We are now being told who we can have in our own houses. Businesses are collapsing.

You sre honestly saying people should accept that quietly? They are outside - so the rates of transmission will be tiny.

@cbt944

Australia has over 25 million people, mostly clustered on the coastlines and largely in the capital cities, many living in cramped quarters and in highrise. In Australia, only 907 have died of Covid.

The United Kingdom has a population of roughly 67 million. 58,000 deaths.

Could have closed its borders to tourists (particularly not allowed residents to travel to and from countries like Spain, or Italy, or anywhere else that had experienced large outbreaks and consequently had simmering numbers of asymptomatic infected carriers) but did not. Locked down too late. Gave out confusing messages. Shithouse attempt at track and trace, etc etc.

And if MN is anything to go by, has a huge cohort of entitled nitwits steadfastly cutting their noses off to spite their faces by refusing to take the virus seriously. It is going to be mayhem, come the new year.

Arent those reasons to protest? Poorly organised covid response, no track and trace system to speak of etc. Or should we just accept our government have done a terrible job and let them continue to do so with no resistance.

Anyone would think they wanted to drag things out. That and/or they hate the elderly, disabled, and NHS workers
I dont think anyone would think that.
Anyone would think that they're pissed off because they've lost their jobs and have very little chance of finding another.

Not just being told who we can have in our houses but what they are permitted to do whilst there.
Enough is enough

They have a right to protest. I don’t want to lose that right just because other people are doing it for something I won’t do. They are taking advantage of living in a free country.

@GurpsAgain

I honestly think that most people don’t realise how very much worse it could get.

Most people don’t know anyone that’s died of covid, but this would very likely change if things got to the stage where there weren’t enough beds/ventilators. Imagine if we reached the stage where contracting covid could quite easily lead to death and it was rife in the community. People would change their tune once they all knew a few workmates or acquaintances who’d died and knew that they might have to face dying at home while waiting for a bed should they catch it.

I know tons of people who've had it. One colleague who died, one who was in ITU proned and ventilated, loads who recovered and one who has post viral fatigue (not a new thing BTW, I've seen a few people with this over the years - yes it existed pre-covid!) I was working in ITU's in London in March/April which was hit hard.

I still support the people who were protesting on Saturday and am very sceptical about the lockdown measures. I am way more worried about the economy than Covid - what do you think funds the NHS?

I am way more worried about all the people I see loosing their jobs and struggling to pay their mortgages because of overly draconian lockdown measures.

Don't claim the moral high ground just because you may be a HCP - I am also a HCP and don't think the same as you. We are allowed to have different opinions.

And I repeat. IF this disease presented the same way that smallpox does, with horrible, disfiguring boils that everyone could see and that left visible scars forever, we would not be having this conversation at all.

@Mamanyt

And I repeat. IF this disease presented the same way that smallpox does, with horrible, disfiguring boils that everyone could see and that left visible scars forever, we would not be having this conversation at all.

Well it doesn't so that is really no argument. It's generally mild for many - not all - people. The Oxford CEBM estimated IFR as between 0.3 to 0.6% (rising with age). I believe the Who estimated a similar IFR (would have to go back and recheck to confirm though) so it's hardly the zombie apocalypse.

@GurpsAgain

And all the while, people still believe that this halfway house lockdown is keeping people safe. It's utter nonsense.

Are you able to explain how we’d be safer with less transmissions by allowing people to congregate in pubs etc again?

I posted a Spectator video a few pages back where a chart was compiled from the Public Health data collected to date.

Transmissions from pubs/restaurants account for 4% of cases. The vast majority are from care homes, education and the workplace.

To answer your question, closing pubs does make us safer but from those figures, not in any significant way. The question is, why are we bankrupting pubs/restaurants for virtually no benefit? Sure, every little helps but it seems the government response is well and truly disproportionate.