Do schools not distinguish between homework done independently and that ‘done’ by parents?

[NellyJames]

Just tried to post this in education but it doesn’t seem to want to post:
DS has been upset as they have a HW ladder where they sit on certain rungs depending upon how the do in their homework. He’s middling and hasn’t really been moving. This is fine by me as it reflects where he is/should be I guess. However, he’s getting upset as he keeps asking me to help (answers not explaining concept) and says everyone else’s mum helps. I’ve been telling him this isn’t true but talking to some other mums they’ve confirmed they always help otherwise their child would get 4/5/6 questions wrong each week. I often see DS getting the wrong answer but I never correct him. The most I’ll do is encourage him to check them. Anyway, DS tells me these friends are up in the ‘clouds’ which is apparently the top rungs of the ladder. Now I feel bad but I still don’t want to help as surely his teacher needs to see which ones he doesn’t understand so she can target those with him? I emailed to ask earlier this week and she’s just emailed back confirming the ladder is used as motivation. Today one of his friends got the gold award for consistently ‘excellent standard of homework!’ hmm I don’t know if I’m being unreasonable.

I never do the homework or lead to the answer but if she gets it wrong, I tell her and go through it again until she gets it right. A middling child in a state school of 30+ children is going to get very little one on one attention. If a child isn’t always understanding in their classroom, it makes it harder for them to learn more and be able to understand everything the teacher says and expects of them.

@Alethiometrical

I don’t really understand why you wouldn’t help your child

Because it's not actually helping your child to actually learn.

why not?

I don't understand you. Your child comes home and doesn't understand something, or has it completely wrong. You sit down, explain it differently, (In Y3 you still find useful resources even on bitesize and others) and make sure the child finally gets it, and is able to find the correct answers independently.

How is that wrong? At a push, your child could be the only one lost in the entire class. How helpful is it to him to keep him behind?

If it was allowed, you wouldn't refuse for the teacher to stay after class and explain again to your child, would you? (I am not asking the teachers to do that!)

Isn't the whole point to have a child going forward?

I think people have misunderstood if they think I don’t involve myself. If he asks how to do a question, I’ll explain but never using the actual question as that would give him the answer. I also point out that he should have another look at some. He will then change them occasionally or leave them if he still can’t see it.
I feel he is being unfairly held up against children whose parents may be giving huge amounts of help. I feel sad for him because if this.

[quote NellyJames]@LolaSmiles, but by leaving it for the teacher then she can see where he needs extra input, surely? How can she know what questions he struggled with if I’ve led him clearly to the answer?[/quote]
You're being quite naive about the realities of teaching primary school tbh OP. The teacher is very unlikely to be able to go back over each individual child's separate errors and reexplain concepts. You'd be standing your son in much better stead if you let your son do his best first, then check them, and coach him through the ones he got wrong. Maybe use a different colour pen for the ones you've helped him with and note them for the teacher. I wouldn't be doing it for him, but if he's consistently getting stuff wrong, he needs extra help understanding the concepts and it's pretty unlikely he'll get that from the teacher every time.

The best learning is done with immediate feedback so it's really useful if you can help your child with his homework.

When he gets the marks back from the teacher it will no longer be meaningful to him as it would have been done 'ages ago'.

I always helped my kids at primary school. I never told them the answers but assisted them to get there.

@CountFosco

To make you feel better OP I never help my DC with homework at primary school. Come the pandemic guess which children were able to work independently at home producing good quality work? Partly it's ability and personality of course (the only time help was ever accepted was when DD1 was making a scale model of the globe theatre and it was 11pm and she hadn't finished the thatched roof) and they have all the class/colour/parental support privilege but I do think in my situation allowing an intrinsically driven child to manage their own work will have longer term benefits than me sitting over them.

Whereas I was more hands on than any other parent I know - class mums night out drinks, I’d get friendly ribbing from the others, any questions about school work that came, everyone would say, “Coco...?”

Reviewed every piece of homework, got involved in testing spellings, taught any maths concepts that she didn’t get.

Come the school closure, my child did more than anyone of her friends - the kids talk, the parents talk. She did it (fairly!) willingly, and she did it mostly independently as I was pretty busy WFH. We had a session together every day to go through it - but the actually getting on with it was independent.

I could claim that my high involvement in her homework earlier, taught her to value education and meant she was used to completing tasks outside of the classroom. I’d love to take some credit!

But actually - I just think it was her personality 🤷🏻‍♀️

But the thing is nelly if he isn’t getting them right still, then he isn’t understanding the concept. What type of homework is is most of the time?

Nelly James - you are no alone.

I explain if they do not understand, look at it, say really think you need to check some of those.
if they do not check then that is their problem. If they do I say well done better effort.

When they come home and say I got 10/10 and you did not help me, but Tom, Dick and Harry's Mums did so theirs don't really count. then you know they got it.

I think you have the right thinking in a way but unrealistic about how much time the teacher has to review every one of 30 pieces of homework/focus on an individual piece of work.

I think it's more likely homework is an opportunity to practise what has been done in class, with the hope that parents will help the child/explain it etc until they grasp it. In that instance the homework ladder is intended to be a motivation to practise at home until you get it.

However I think it's a terrible idea. There are children who's parents can't/won't put in the time, children with SEN who may struggle more than peers etc. I'm amazed its consider ok.

"I thought the point of homework wasfor the child to work independently."

Exactly and to foster self-discipline.

I think YABU to expect it to be any different tbh but YANBU to think the HW ladder is a bit unfair. The teacher should know their class so they'll know who is struggling and who is getting help at home. Our school specifically doesn't include homework marks in overall grades because they can't determine how much help DCs get at home.

Our school's homework advice is that parents check and point out where DCs have gone wrong eg 'look again at Q3' rather than 'the answer to Q3 is 42'. It encourages DC to do the work themselves. Sometimes I've found DC don't click with a teacher or a teacher's explanation and when I explain it to them, they get it. I think that's partly the point of homework. Teachers won't understand your DC as well as you will, so you might have an approach that makes more sense to your DC.

Because it's not actually helping your child to actually learn.

Yes it is, unless you're literally just telling them the right answer rather than explaining and helping them to get to the right answer. And nobody is suggesting parents should do that, obviously.

Teachers do the same thing - they explain things and help children arrive at the right answer. Do you still think it's 'not actually helping the child to learn' when they do it?

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Dd does her homework, I check the sheet. I point to the ones she has got wrong and give her a chance to spot her mistake and correct it (which she does in a way that the teacher can also see the original error).

If she doesn't know what she has done wrong I talk to her about what the question is asking and usually she then gets what she needs to do.

If she still has no idea, I don't teach her what to do - I want the teacher to acknowledge that she doesn't know that yet.

This is exactly what I do

@CountFosco just to add - I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying, and my reply probably doesn’t show that clearly. I just think that helping with homework (guiding helping, not doing helping!) comes further down the list of lockdown homeschool success factors than other things you mention: personality, ability, drive, other privilege.

As a teacher I expect the parents to help their children a bit but also let me know if they're struggling. It's a judgement call kind of thing.

At the end of the day I have 20+ kids to teach - I can only give your child a portion of that time and I have a curriculum to get through, so a classroom can be pressured. If it's a small misconception that the parent can easily clarify then it's good for them to do that. At the same time I'd like to know so a note into the diary/written on the page/an email is great. The people who just write "x didn't get this, can you explain again" on a simple task make me Now, if a parent doesn't understand it themselves or doesn't have the time that's a different story of course. Demoing it using a different question sounds perfect.

Having said that I think homework is a waste of everyone's time so I give very little

allowing an intrinsically driven child to manage their own work will have longer term benefits than me sitting over them.

it's all about balance.

I had help and support from my parents in Primary. I was working completely independently in Secondary, and manage to navigate through A Level's and Uni perfectly well.

It never hurts to start with solid base and foundation when they are little, and let them be more independent as they get older.

DH and I are involved in our kids homework, they managed just fine during the lockdown (even if we could all have happily done without it) whilst we were both working full time.

Now my very-average kids are very bored in class because most of the time is still playing catch with what some kids have missed out last year. It's frustrating.

but by leaving it for the teacher then she can see where he needs extra input, surely? How can she know what questions he struggled with if I’ve led him clearly to the answer?

@NelltJames it sounds like you've delegated the responsibility for educating your child to the teacher rather than viewing it as a partnership. Homework lets you see where your child needs extra input so you have a precious opportunity to help fill the gaps if you have the ability and patience to do so. That frees the teacher up to a) build on your input by providing your child with further knowledge and b) spend more time with children whose parents aren't able to help them.

Your child's teacher knows what they can do in school. They don't need homework to help them find out.

If you help your child to do well now, and compete with the best, it will build their confidence. They will become independent soon enough, in their own time. Before you know it your child won't want you anywhere near their homework, so do help them now while you still have the opportunity.

Yes other kids have more help. I don’t view my child’s teacher as her only teacher. I view homework as a chance for kids to practice and a chance for parents to identify and repair learning gaps. I was my child’s first teacher and I will always be her teacher. I do recognize not every child has a parent willing or able to take on this roll (which is why things like a homework ladder are awful), but I’m always going to do the best I can to give my child the best education possible.

@NellyJames mis-spelled the tag

@NellyJames

So does nobody else let their child hand in homework with incorrect answers? I thought most people would. Clearly I’m way off the mark with this. And just to be clear again, I do get him to double check, occasionally saying to check no9 say. But I don’t tell him they’re wrong and spoon feed him the answer.

I do exactly what you do op - sometimes with a 'dd struggled with this' note or similar if I see that it's wrong. If everyone did this then the teacher would know if a concept had been understood in class or not.

I feel he is being unfairly held up against children whose parents may be giving huge amounts of help. I feel sad for him because if this.

So give him huge amounts of help.

Homework isn't a test. It's learning. It's working further on what they do in class.

But the thing is nelly if he isn’t getting them right still, then he isn’t understanding the concept.

This. The idea that the teachers do all the educating in primary school is sadly not realistic with class sizes of 30. If you are going over and really spending time on it with him and he's really not getting it, I'd be sending a note to the teacher.

My parents hardly ever helped me with homework abd I felt really alone. The teachers were run ragged and impatient, I just stopped asking for help and fell behind.

I think you are being too rigid with we must show the teacher... teachers notice from class what the children know and dont know and teachers realise that children got help or extra teaching at home. I just dont know why you would leave your kiddo struggle like that. It just made me feel stupid in class and a burden to teacher abd my parents. It's neglectful not to help with homework when you are in primary school, in my opinion.

The teachers know what stage the kids are at from what they do in class so just because a child gets 10/10 doesn't mean they're doing that at school!

As I said previously, homework isn't a test. It's extra learning to support what they're doing at school.

I have struggled with the same concept. However I realised that like a PP said, unless you help your child there is a chance the teacher will just not have the time to go over individuals who don't understand the work thoroughly until they do get it, the curriculum moves on and the child won't ever really get it.

Like a PP also said, I see it as "tutoring". I would never do it or feed the answers but I will explain the concepts again, find online resources to explain it etc and oversee that they can do it themselves. I have realised that time, teachers and the curriculum pace just don't allow for going over and over things before all individauls really have "got it". So I fill in that gap..