Do schools not distinguish between homework done independently and that ‘done’ by parents?

[NellyJames]

Just tried to post this in education but it doesn’t seem to want to post:
DS has been upset as they have a HW ladder where they sit on certain rungs depending upon how the do in their homework. He’s middling and hasn’t really been moving. This is fine by me as it reflects where he is/should be I guess. However, he’s getting upset as he keeps asking me to help (answers not explaining concept) and says everyone else’s mum helps. I’ve been telling him this isn’t true but talking to some other mums they’ve confirmed they always help otherwise their child would get 4/5/6 questions wrong each week. I often see DS getting the wrong answer but I never correct him. The most I’ll do is encourage him to check them. Anyway, DS tells me these friends are up in the ‘clouds’ which is apparently the top rungs of the ladder. Now I feel bad but I still don’t want to help as surely his teacher needs to see which ones he doesn’t understand so she can target those with him? I emailed to ask earlier this week and she’s just emailed back confirming the ladder is used as motivation. Today one of his friends got the gold award for consistently ‘excellent standard of homework!’ hmm I don’t know if I’m being unreasonable.

@OutwiththeOutCrowd

I suspect getting into a selective school was easier in days gone by because there was less of a culture of consciously competing for a place, of engaging in extra activities over a long period of time to give a pupil an edge over the ‘opposition'. The tutoring industry had yet to make its mark. It was enough to be a scholarly type.

I’m not a fan of the homework ladder. It reminds me of the old practice at universities of posting exam results up on a noticeboard in rank order for all to see. Are such measures, whether in schools or universities, supposed to encourage ‘healthy’ competition? There may be the odd slacker that’s humiliated into trying harder. There may be the odd swot that gets a momentary thrill. But mostly it just seems inhumane and disrespectful of privacy.

Education does not have to be designed around the idea of a competition, other models are available. But it’s hardly surprising in the current pushy climate that spending time on MN can feel like being trapped in an episode of Dance Moms.

And, no, the adults shouldn’t be doing the homework. But then, I’m not entirely convinced the children should be doing it either - at least at primary school level.

The school day is long enough and there is plenty of research to show the brain needs downtime - and not just during sleep - to process the input of the day and form memories.

I think indolence is truly underrated!

I feel that no homework, except reading and perhaps the odd project, should be the norm. If children want to mooch when they come home, they should be able to mooch. Let them draw or make lego models or play keepie uppie. Their brains will still be at work on the material introduced during the school day without them being consciously aware of it.

Of course, children who’ve missed out on schooling due to ill health need to catch up and those who are struggling because they don’t have the sort of mind that assimilates certain aspects of schoolwork easily should be given the extra help they need. And that might require out-of-school-hours effort.

Those sort of exceptions aside, I’m in favour of more chillin’ and less drillin’.

I agree with every word. I think probably I just don't value homework much.

I don't recall anyone doing any extra work at home nor getting tutored for grammar school back in the 80s. I don't think people were as bothered about going either.

More chilling and less homework sounds perfect 👌

@5863921l

My parents never helped me with any school work & like a poster earlier I somehow managed to get to grammar school.

See, I have no idea what this is supposed to prove. Other than the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude.

I wouldn't go that far.

Mine didn't help me either but I would have loved more involved, intelligent parents with whom I could discuss concepts. They believed the school should do everything and just sat in front of the TV all evening. They'd have been pretty pissed off had I failed though (would probably have blamed me). I'd have liked to discuss books and do puzzles at home but it wasn't on the cards.

Years ago schools were much better at preparing us for the 11+. It was just taken for granted then that kids had to learn certain things because everyone took the exam.

Not sure how old your DS is, but my year 3 child can't do their homework independently, and has never handed in a wrong ansewer with homework and she has heavy input from us. She does have SEN though. I'm certain the teachers will know we are helping, were not trying to fool anyone. Last year we could tick a box that said if they had a little help, a lot of help or worked independently. In my dd's case though having her see a piece of work through to the end even with a lot of guidance is a worthwhile task for her. If my child was capable of finishing her own homework independent I'd probably not be checking for and correcting mistakes in the same way. I think with my older children I stopped helping once they were in year 6. With my senior children I'm little help tbh. I confess I once agreed to help one of my year 8's with an RE assignment they said they were really struggling with and I ended up basically writing and typing it up myself because I struggled to effectively explain. I don't think I even did a good job on it, it was hard! I definitely can't help with high school maths post year 7.

Years ago schools were much better at preparing us for the 11+. It was just taken for granted then that kids had to learn certain things because everyone took the exam.

Depends where you came from. It was very rare in my school for anyone to pass the 11 plus and go to the grammar. No one from my year did. The school didn't do a good job of preparing us. I heard of other people occasionally getting in from neighbouring schools as their parents had paid for tutoring though.

I'm probably a lot older than you, Kallorphic. My son is 41 though and took his 11+ aged ten with no extra tutoring.

@NellyJames

So everyone who helps, do you write a note each time to say you’ve helped? Otherwise how can the teacher distinguish between the children who got them all correct by themselves and your child who needed a bit of help?

Omg !! You are missing the point!! You are being so passive about this

My 3 DCs have always done their own homework & asked me to check it or sit and help them if they were getting stuck . Praise the right answers and go "oh buddies number 9 is wrong" let's look at it again ...

We redo it. Yup extra working out and crossed through ( most is online now so teacher sees it) if need be

But if my child doesn't understand it I teach them so they do or we look it up. We keep going .. and then if we don't get it - we say ok gotta ask teacher tomorrow then bud.

I don't sit back and go oh well, meh I tried.

If I can see they are struggling and I can't explain it right in a way they can understand ( not usually a problem in Year 3 work to be honest!!) then I would add a note teacher to say, "DC didn't understand problem 8- (nor did I)"

You really think teachers are going to go over 30 children's odd bits they didn't quite get? They'll only notice when it becomes a bigger issue .

Please teach your child to persevere and not to accept getting questions wrong

That's how you create confident learners

You don't do homework for your child
You don't give them the answer
You help themUnderstand because you can teach them to or help them look up how to work it out - the internet is wonderful - you tube teaching videos etc

So those children higher up the ladder are
-Either just naturally more academic

• or their parents aren't as passive as you are

If your DS is unhappy being middle ladder then get some oomph yourself , education is teachers AND parents job - help your boy learn some confidence and drive to keep going and show initiative . Don't let him settle for "meh 7/10 again"... Ask him if he wants to get 9/10 or 10/10- "shall we look it up together how to do it son, as it's hard but we'll get there"

then I would add a note teacher to say, "DC didn't understand problem 8- (nor did I)

I would look it up online, and show DC how to go about looking it up. That way he soon learned to look things up himself.

It’s not easy.

My six year old has eight spelling words a week - some of them I think quite hard for a six year old. They generally aren’t the kind of words you can ‘sound out’.

They have a spelling test on a Friday morning. I recognise they are six and who cares but my daughter takes it very seriously, so for that reason I do work with her on her words through the week.

But to be honest, I’m not a teacher. I have experience in this. I don’t really know what I’m doing. I just get her to write the word out over and over. Sometimes I different colours. She has a good memory so it does work but she understandably gets bored quickly.

I just don’t know how to go about it 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don’t have experience in this, I should say.

I’m not shirking responsibility by the way. I am a huge believer in parental input and involvement and I am more than happy to put the time in. I just don’t know how to do it.

@SuperAlly

I don’t have experience in this, I should say.

I’m not shirking responsibility by the way. I am a huge believer in parental input and involvement and I am more than happy to put the time in. I just don’t know how to do it.

Just ask. Nobody knows everything, not even teachers. Not even when related to teaching.

As for your DD....

Make it fun... spell it with magnetic letter, in sand or foam,with chalks outside, paint it with water, rainbow writing, write them with her eyes shut, spell them out,bubble writing etc. Writing the same words over and over in the same way can be a bit boring and off putting.

If she knows any she doesn't have to keep practising them for the week.

If there's a spelling pattern focus on that first and realising all the words start/end or have x in the middle.

So everyone who helps, do you write a note each time to say you’ve helped? Otherwise how can the teacher distinguish between the children who got them all correct by themselves and your child who needed a bit of help?

You don't need to write a note. They know exactly what you've done and not done. It takes about thirty seconds to evaluate the child and the parent. Many of the less able children from disciplined supportive homes will do better and teachers know exactly who they are and why that is.

And by do better I do mean do better. As one concept builds on knowledge, memory and understanding, the more able child who doesn't have a solid grasp of previous material is at a disadvantage and it's generally not rocket science, slow and steady wins the race. Less supported children often have less respect, listen less, engage less, don't consolidate their learning and scrape by without mastering the material. It doesn't matter how clever they are (unless they're super smart), that child is streets behind the one who really got to grips with it (often at home, school is often just a spring board for what happens at home).

You wouldn't expect someone to learn a language or musical instrument without diligent effort out of class. With young children, every thing they learn is a scaffolded team effort. I can't fathom why parents would feel entitled or willing to remove themselves from the equation. It's not as if they're unaware that class sizes are too large, understaffed with support staff and usually bursting at the seams with children with additional needs.

Over, we are a supportive home, and I trusted our school to teach dd or pick up issues and make us aware should she need extra support.

Unfortunately that system didn't kick into place. In lock down I fully realised her potential but also how little she knew. I've had to do it all myself with her, find out how she learns, teach in different ways and help her learn.

I'm cut off again now because the school will not share what they are learning with me so I guess she'll fall behind again.
Personally I think more transparency is needed that school s can only do so much, there is no safety net or teaching for sen... There is no flexibility or deviance from the set path.... Parents need to step in and observe every step of the way.

Why doesn't the school share what she is learning? That seems very strange.

Are you aware that the material covered over the course of the year is easy to find out about (albeit you don't know exactly what's being covered that week).

@NellyJames I’m with you. I help to a certain extent, but if they get them all right with you doing the work, this is of no help to the teachers understanding of where they are. Homework I believe should be consolidation of prior learning in class.

I have 4 DC and have helped with homework to varying extents, depending on the child. They are all fairly academic and we don’t bother much with readers past the initial years because they can all read well. They will still read them, but to themselves. Only the youngest (going into year 2, we’re in Australia and have finished now) has spelling.

My year 3/4 child has needed the most supervision, she seems to have had a lot of homework and I do check it and will point out any maths or speeding mistakes. If she doesn’t “get” something, like internal 0s in subtraction we’ll do a few until she does. If she has oral presentations she’ll make the slides or the poster but I’ll practise the speaking part with her.

My two high school DC are pretty independent. My oldest (going into year 9) needs a bit of prompting to stop faffing around and listening to music and sometimes realises a few days before a maths test that she can’t rotate objects around a plane or something and we go over it.

If I don’t help them with this, who will? The teacher is too busy to constantly assess for and fill in small gaps in knowledge in students who are otherwise capable.

My second daughter (just finished year 7) doesn’t need any help at all, she’s organised and motivated. She did ask for help once this year with a maths problem - a truck was travelling at a particular speed and its wheels were turning at a particular revolution per second. You had to work out the diameter of the tyre . However, she’s better at maths than me and once I told her revolution = circumference she was fine.

I suppose there’s a continuum in approaches ranging from all learning should be at school to school isn’t enough and should be supplemented by extensive external tutoring.
We’re more in the former category but if you’re capable and able to help your child, why wouldn’t you? Year in and year out, no one else is going to care more about your child’s learning than you are.

I guess they can jog on if they think it's valuable, and get a bit of a surprise when real tests come along.

That said... the teacher will know which ones are truly able, and probably the ladder just helps motivate the children to do the work. Covering in some format I guess is better than not covering it at all. I expect there would be children that did drift if there wasn't the motivation to be up there with their peers.

*speeding mistakes = spelling mistakes. Though speeding sounds more fun!