Do schools not distinguish between homework done independently and that ‘done’ by parents?

[NellyJames]

Just tried to post this in education but it doesn’t seem to want to post:
DS has been upset as they have a HW ladder where they sit on certain rungs depending upon how the do in their homework. He’s middling and hasn’t really been moving. This is fine by me as it reflects where he is/should be I guess. However, he’s getting upset as he keeps asking me to help (answers not explaining concept) and says everyone else’s mum helps. I’ve been telling him this isn’t true but talking to some other mums they’ve confirmed they always help otherwise their child would get 4/5/6 questions wrong each week. I often see DS getting the wrong answer but I never correct him. The most I’ll do is encourage him to check them. Anyway, DS tells me these friends are up in the ‘clouds’ which is apparently the top rungs of the ladder. Now I feel bad but I still don’t want to help as surely his teacher needs to see which ones he doesn’t understand so she can target those with him? I emailed to ask earlier this week and she’s just emailed back confirming the ladder is used as motivation. Today one of his friends got the gold award for consistently ‘excellent standard of homework!’ hmm I don’t know if I’m being unreasonable.

As a teacher this is a minefield. If you suspect that parents are doing homework it takes a brave or reckless teacher to challenge it - said parents can be very defensive at the merest hint. I say this as a secondary school teacher - I have been very suspicious of work at A Level for goodness sake. I really don't know how these helicopter parents think they are helping when they dc are 17/ 18 years old by doing the work for them.

I agree that in primary parents can and should be helping to support with homework.

What I think IS cheeky is when its a craft project and QUITE CLEARLY the adult has done it and so the wonky plastic creation actually made by a 5 year old gets outshone by something baked in fimo and/or with three different patterns done on a sewing machine.

Agree

and the teachers are entirely to blame here.

I have seen teachers giving first price to some art project that was clearly made by the child (or a very useless parent 😂 ) and not to the Masterpiece that kept some parents up for a few nights! That's how it should be.

Unless you have an absolute genius in your class, and the teacher would have noticed with the craft done whilst at school, it's obvious who had done what.

Real teaching and learning isn't just giving the child the answers. I think you are right to support in terms of understanding concepts and perhaps model how to do one question e.g. if it was maths and doing long division but then your DS does need to struggle a bit and thrash out the answer himself. It will stick better if he does. So it's great that all those kids just immediately got told the answers so they can be up in the clouds but trust me they'll be down with a bump once they hit secondary and it isn't so easy for parents to just 'give' the answer and they won't have strong foundations in that skill because they never had to work to process the information and work out the answer themselves. Something else you can do with your son is when he gets his homework back and where he has got wrong answers, THEN go over it with him- give him some of the answers and see if he can explain how/why that is the right answer.

This is really why homework at the primary school level isn't all that helpful. ie - mostly a waste of time.

I don't helicopter my y2 or y5 ds homework most of the time I just leave them to it. but if I see them getting it wrong I tell them to go back and check it tell them something is wrong so they can do it again.

I think maybe DS needs a different approach. My DD is in Y11 at one of the highest performing grammar schools in the country. It is extremely selective. She desperately wanted to go there but I refused to get a tutor as I felt she should only go if she could pass the test without any help. She did pass but afterwards I realised from conversations with other parents that virtually all her new classmates had been tutored from early on. I was shocked but she has coped extremely well with the pressure and intensity of the work whereas some other girls haven’t. I want to ensure that DS reaching his own potential. He’s not fiercely academic like his older sister and I was worried about spoon feeding him. But from reading all this, I think he does need mire input from me.

So it's great that all those kids just immediately got told the answers so they can be up in the clouds

how do you know the parents didn't go through the concept with them, and why do you immediately assume they just did the homework for them?

Sadly, you are right to be suspicious @marchonby 🧐 One of DD’s friends recently told me another friend had done surprisingly well with an essay recently - because her mum wrote it! 🤯 We are in Scotland and they are doing Nat 5’s this year. With exams being cancelled, their marks will be awarded based on coursework and teacher assessments. That girl’s mum will do well! 🙈

I feel for your DS @NellyJames - it’s pointless having a homework ladder on display. Parental input will never make it a level playing field.

I can never agree that it's ever in the best interest of a primary school child not to provide them with the best structure, the best resources, the most opportunities down to the best school you can afford to send them to - most parents here have moved to make sure they were in the right catchment.

You provide them with a solid foundation, with tutoring if needed.

You wouldn't let an 8 year old in charge of his own menus to teach them independence either. You teach them the basics, they will be in charge of their own food later. Exactly the same with schooling.

The other thing, though, is that my understanding of the research is that the "value added" in homework at primary age is pretty minimal so how is the OP's less interventionist approach setting her ds up to fail?

Homework is a rare opportunity for one to one help/mentoring. There's a difference between doing it for them and helping them to improve. You absolutely should help correct their mistakes. It's not cheating or a test. You also want to help encourage some independence too, but that tends to happen as they get older. Also, in the real world, people do get ahead by asking for help or advice.

but by leaving it for the teacher then she can see where he needs extra input, surely? How can she know what questions he struggled with if I’ve led him clearly to the answer?

So say DC had a sheet but they'd muddled up circumference and area (older topics but the principle is the same) then it would be sensible to remind them to check they have them the right way round because getting muddled in homework isn't a sign a child needs lengthy intervention in class.

Or if they'd done a topic in class and the homework was consolidation but they'd forgotten something then a walk through to remind them isn't leading them to the answers. It's recapping so they can do the homework.

As a teacher, albeit secondary, I look at the whole picture when assessing a student. Homework is just one part of that.

I don't agree with having the homework ladder, but find it unusual that you think support and guidance is synonymous with giving them the answers.

However, I would say that, when looking at any homework, it's worth checking whether it is useful or valuable. I tend to not bother with it unless I can see it as being worthwhile.

@Phineyj - are you a primary teacher? At my DD's school parental involvement with the homework is specifically encouraged - talk with your child about this, read this book with/to your child. Nothing is marked. The teacher already knows her students well enough to know where they are with their learning.

@longestlurkerever

The other thing, though, is that my understanding of the research is that the "value added" in homework at primary age is pretty minimal so how is the OP's less interventionist approach setting her ds up to fail?

because it's assuming someone will have to take the time to not only notice the child is behind, but find the time to go back to these concepts with them.

It's not realistic.

And if the teacher IS really going back, it's wasting the time of the others who are ready to go to the next step

We know teachers must juggle completely different levels and strengths in class, but why wouldn't a parent do their bit and help their own child out?

Go through the answers with him an help them work out the correct answer put it underneath the wrong answer. I don't understand why you wouldn't help/teach your child doesn't all need to be left to the teachers you know.

Yes - overhelpful parents were one of the reasons that coursework elements of GCSE were either totally removed, or changed to classroom supervised only tasks. I was not upset to see the back of them. They totally gave the advantage to the helicopter parented few.

@NellyJames

So everyone who helps, do you write a note each time to say you’ve helped? Otherwise how can the teacher distinguish between the children who got them all correct by themselves and your child who needed a bit of help?

Could you just get him to work it out again in a different colour pen when you've given him some guidance? I used to do this when I taught primary and I wanted children to try incorrect answers again, it makes it really clear when it comes to assessment when a concept isn't secure yet and needed a couple of goes. And they liked my fancy coloured pens so didn't mind

I'm sorry if this has been said (7 pages!) But in my experience they rarely stay on one topic until all children have grasped it. Once they've passed it they've passed it. With maths this can be particularly frustrating because concepts build on each other. Basically you need to understand to be able to move on and keep understanding.

I help. I never give an answer but I'll explain the concept, maybe in a different way and then get dc to try again.
The teacher doesn't need to know when I've done this. All that matters is that dc now understands and is able to move forward.

I understand your logic but I think you’re overestimating the amount of time the teacher will have to analyse each piece of homework, to consider which child needs more help with which concept. Workload, large class numbers and a jam packed curriculum mean that there is limited time for revisiting concepts. If you are able to help your child and explain where they’ve gone wrong, I’d definitely do it. This is not the same as giving them the answers. It is no coincidence that young people with the best educational outcomes usually have parents who are very involved with their education (not that I’m suggesting you aren’t). There is also a reason that so many parents pay for private tuition. The teacher sadly doesn’t have time to support every child with every misconception

Okay, so I've only skim-read the thread but I have read all of your post's, OP, and the way I see it is helping your DS with his homework is one thing, helping him with the answers is another. Kids need to learn to make mistakes and get things wrong to encourage them to practise more and try harder the next time. All these parents that say OP should help with the answers – what are you going to do when your DC is sitting in exam conditions and you're not there to answer for them? How are you teaching them to be self-sufficient and resilient in their learning?

To paraphrase a MN saying, OP, you don't have a homework problem, OP, you have a homework ladder problem. I would talk to the teacher about how stressed your DS is becoming by their ridiculous rating and how your approach as a family to DS doing his homework means he's being leapfrogged by kids whose parents are doing the work for them. The teacher may not realise how unfair it is and could come up with something different. Y3 is ridiculously young to be homework shaming them.

@SinkGirl

A homework ladder? What a horrible idea. I hope there are no kids with SEN in his class (highly unlikely). Unless they’re basing it on how hard they’ve tried / how much progress they are making, this seems very ill advised. And I definitely don’t think parents should be answering questions for their kids, great way to make sure they don’t properly understand - they’ll struggle later.

I agree with this. Some children are simply less able than others. Some have no help at home for various reasons. Having a ladder of who has done best is very very unfair.

Public rewards should never be for achievement. They should be for effort, or achievement against personalised targets to make it equitable.

I teach French. When I correct homework, I don't take notes on who has understood the concept and to which depth. If I couldn't move on until the whole class is confident in their understanding, we would stay stuck forever.
There is a difference between understanding and being able to apply the rule which only comes with practice. There would be no point for me to keep repeating and repeating a rule which everyone knows when what the student needs is to do be able to recall it and use it correctly. That is the point of homework . Consolidating a concept.

As a mother, I often joke that I went to school 4 times, one a child and three times as an adult (I have 3 DC). Of course you help. You sit down while your DC is doing the homework and when he makes a mistake, you take a piece of scarp paper and show the why and how. Then write on that piece a similar question and he has to do it.

In an ideal world, there would be no parent input, no tutor, and the game would be fair. However the game is rigged so you must play the game and use every trick in your sleeve.

The homework ladder should be scrapped.
It would kill the small bit of confidence my DD has.

Actually I think the biggest issue here is your DC's confidence and how that might feed into his future learning habits. Children who have more help I would imagine feel happy and confident that they're at the top of the ladder. That feeds in to their sense of who they are i.e. someone who is good at X subject/academic/whatever. Once they feel that's who they are, it feeds into their motivation and confidence for learning in the future. From what you've said, your DC is feeling upset that he's in the middle of the ladder and inadequate in the sense that he believes he's working hard at homework with nothing to show for it given he isn't moving up the ladder. To me that's the most worrying thing about this and how that will affect his beliefs about himself, his abilities, and possibly leading to a mindset of 'it doesn't matter how hard I work as I don't get anything to show for it, I must just not be as good/clever as X, y and Z'.