Do schools not distinguish between homework done independently and that ‘done’ by parents?

[NellyJames]

Just tried to post this in education but it doesn’t seem to want to post:
DS has been upset as they have a HW ladder where they sit on certain rungs depending upon how the do in their homework. He’s middling and hasn’t really been moving. This is fine by me as it reflects where he is/should be I guess. However, he’s getting upset as he keeps asking me to help (answers not explaining concept) and says everyone else’s mum helps. I’ve been telling him this isn’t true but talking to some other mums they’ve confirmed they always help otherwise their child would get 4/5/6 questions wrong each week. I often see DS getting the wrong answer but I never correct him. The most I’ll do is encourage him to check them. Anyway, DS tells me these friends are up in the ‘clouds’ which is apparently the top rungs of the ladder. Now I feel bad but I still don’t want to help as surely his teacher needs to see which ones he doesn’t understand so she can target those with him? I emailed to ask earlier this week and she’s just emailed back confirming the ladder is used as motivation. Today one of his friends got the gold award for consistently ‘excellent standard of homework!’ hmm I don’t know if I’m being unreasonable.

I'm surprised at the number of posters saying you should make sure he hands in perfect work with no mistakes.

I am surprised too as no one has said that.

I too am surprised at people's ability to read something that isn't there. Particularly when that person also claims to be a teacher. Maybe this is why we need to support our children at home when their learning is not going well at school.

When dd was small we used to help and explain concepts, etc. We didn't give her the answer but certainly cleared up any misunderstandings, rephrased questions so she understand, and such things. We'd sit with her and work through ones she found difficult to ensure she was not reinforcing an incorrect method/understanding.

Mind, I don't like the idea of a homework ladder. That sounds rubbish as you're always going to have some children where parents do it all and some who don't even have the homework out of their bag, often with no fault in the child.

DD's teachers used to encourage parents to make a comment under homework to state if there were any concerns, etc. So you might write a sentence underneath, or in the homework planner, just to say that she was fine with x but didn't seem clear on y.

[quote NellyJames]@LolaSmiles, but by leaving it for the teacher then she can see where he needs extra input, surely? How can she know what questions he struggled with if I’ve led him clearly to the answer?[/quote]
Put an little mark next to the ones that he struggled with and indicate this to the teacher, if you think he would still struggle if facing it again.

@Pukkatea , maths was your best subject because your dad spent hours helping you. Hm. It was and still is my worst subject, for the very same reason.

A teacher can spot parent help when someone brings in an award worthy model of the colosseum, sure. Not when it’s just a few sums or grammar exercises
If you think we assess pupil progress based on what mark someone gets on a piece of homework then you're very much mistaken.

We are perfectly capable of looking at a holistic overview of a child's performance.

If parent helps explain a concept at home and the child is more secure with it as a result then great. If they aren't secure then it will show in their class work and in their verbal answers.

If people don't want to help their child with homework then that's their decision, but not supporting your their child with homework isn't a favour to the teacher and it's daft people try to argue otherwise.

@LolaSmiles

A teacher can spot parent help when someone brings in an award worthy model of the colosseum, sure. Not when it’s just a few sums or grammar exercises If you think we assess pupil progress based on what mark someone gets on a piece of homework then you're very much mistaken.

We are perfectly capable of looking at a holistic overview of a child's performance.

If parent helps explain a concept at home and the child is more secure with it as a result then great. If they aren't secure then it will show in their class work and in their verbal answers.

If people don't want to help their child with homework then that's their decision, but not supporting your their child with homework isn't a favour to the teacher and it's daft people try to argue otherwise.

There's a big difference between a parent explaining something to their child or helping them to research something.

What annoys me is the art projects. It's blindingly obvious the children haven't done them. So why bother? And don't say "so that the kids do something with their parents" - that's so patronising.

Sorry lola I’m not being rude but I genuinely have no idea what you mean.

I am a teacher myself; I can’t say I pay particular attention to homework. I might notice if a child hands in work that’s say obviously written by an adult but if it’s just a few questions or whatever as I imagine it is at primary (I’m secondary so could be wrong) I wouldn’t know (or care) who did it.

I think what matters here is that this little boy has support and help at home and it isn’t just assumed school will sort it. As it doesn’t work like that!

Welcometonowhere
What I was meaning is that it's totally obvious if a child who hasn't mastered something in school goes home and brings in a full mark homework when the next lesson they are still evidently struggling with the topic.

If a child gets 10/10 rather than 8/10 because a parent has helped them work a couple out or gone through it with them and their classwork is still showing a child has generally mastered the topic then why would we as teachers need to identify the fact a child has had support at home?

What's got me a bit baffled on this thread is that some posters seem to be claiming that not helping their child is because giving no/minimal help is apparently for the teacher's benefit when in reality if it's obviously not the child's work it will be evident, and if they've had a little help does it really matter if the parent hasn't declared the help?

cologne4711
I hate the big art projects. Some children really enjoy them, but others haven't the resources to complete them well and for some it becomes a pissing contest for competitive parents.

With you now, sorry - and yes, absolutely! I suppose I’d want to be helping my child (I don’t mean that snarkily to the OP, she’s clearly well intentioned) and so I wouldn’t be sending them in with incorrect answers, but hopefully that wouldn’t mean actually doing it for them.

(Unless they remember it at 8 o clock Sunday evening and I have a headache )

DS is year 4 now. He does it independently but then I check it. If there’s any errors I run through them with him to help him understand why it is wrong. We put stars next to it to show that he’s had help with that bit.

Our school has always explained to us that they are expecting parents to help ie check spelling, punctuation and grammar before essays are handed in etc. Likewise maths work is supposed to be checked by a parent. I thought that was normal. I’d never let him hand homework in that wasn’t correct ie with spelling mistakes or wrong answers.

And yes I hate the art projects too. Lots of mums doing the work for them and/or having bought really expensive supplies. Stupid. Everyone can tell when the kids haven’t done their own work.

I think the teacher should not focus too much on awards based on homework, given how much kids' home lives vary.

But in your position I would give him more help. What value is it for the teacher to see his mistakes, when she has 30 kids to deal with, compared to the opportunity for 1 to 1 tutoring from you. She can already see what he can do independently, based on his classroom work. He's motivated to do well on his homework, so use that motivation to help him learn.

You don't tell him the answer. You go back through the wrong ones, and say - talk me through why you put that? Is that bit right? Give him some hints to help him realise his own mistakes. That kind of personalised, scaffolded learning is highly valuable.

Welcometonowhere
I wasn't clear. That's what sleep deprivation does to you

@Kaliorphic

I'm surprised at the number of posters saying you should make sure he hands in perfect work with no mistakes.

I am surprised too as no one has said that.

I too am surprised at people's ability to read something that isn't there. Particularly when that person also claims to be a teacher. Maybe this is why we need to support our children at home when their learning is not going well at school.

I wouldn’t let him hand in answers that were wrong at age 7, no.

Other posters have implied also that incorrect work should not really be handed in & that they would continue to work on said task until it was accurate.

Luckily the subject I teach is one that most parents can't help with so generally it's the students own work.

We're probably just lazy parents. DH did teach both children so it would have been silly if he had helped with the homework he had set himself.

He has in the past commented on how some parents have clearly pretty much dictated the work as he knows the student can't do that level independently. I would assume any good teacher would know the level of the students from the work they produce in class.

I would assume any good teacher would know the level of the students from the work they produce in class.

Not necessarily true though because a child could have got a bit lost with an explanation in class and ended up floundering whereas at home, with one to one support to make sure every step is understood, the results are very different. It’s why some children flourish in certain circumstances and others don’t.

My son’s dyslexic. I help him, even if that means guiding and giving him the right answer as I explain how we reach that answer. Otherwise he’d just get things wrong and be demoralised. I’d do this even if he wasn’t, tbh,

Homework ladder sounds an awful thing. Only children who get 10/10 in their spellings get a gold certificate in my son’s class which automatically puts him at a disadvantage.

The bit I don't get is the "I'd never let him hand in wrong answers!" bit. Help, or don't help but this horror at making a mistake is odd imo. Making mistakes is part of learning and building resilience, surely? My dd1's teacher commented on a few different occasions that she was a resilient learner and that this was really important.

I understand, whenever I try to help my son with his maths homework I always end up doing it for him.

Not necessarily true though because a child could have got a bit lost with an explanation in class and ended up floundering whereas at home, with one to one support to make sure every step is understood, the results are very different. It’s why some children flourish in certain circumstances and others don’t
But having had that additional support at home, the child would probably go on to demonstrate the skills and knowledge in class.
If a child benefits from some support with homework, the content clicks and they go onto show that in class then that pupil would have a different overall picture to a student who was struggling in school, parents essentially do the homework for them, and then they go back into class still unable to do the skill.

That's why we make holistic judgements based on class work, homework, any contributions in class and so on.

Yes surely supportive parents at home who take an interest is always going to benefit the child and the teacher and the school.
Obviously with regards to the art projects yes it’s annoying when the clearly talented arty parents get super involved but even that isn’t really “cheating” just a bit irritating

Other posters have implied also that incorrect work should not really be handed in & that they would continue to work on said task until it was accurate

Yes indeed posters are saying they will support their child to understand the concept so that they are able to work out the correct answer independently. Otherwise known as supporting your child with their education.

I think you over estimate what a teacher can do.

The kids that do best in the long run are the ones with most parential input.

That includes 'doing the teachers work for them'. Which is a phrase i find bullshit and an abdication of responsibility tbh. It is a parent's job to be proactive in their child's education and not expect other people to take full responsibility for it.

If you are capable of explaining thw homework and where they are going wrong you do. And you explain it until they get it right rather than leaving it for the teacher to pick up the pieces you cant be bothered to do.

Part of the homework process is learning to work independently but its also about learning to keep trying until you do get it right away from the safety net of the teacher too. And tbh that applies to parents as well as kids.

I will never understand parents who think the role of educating their child is up to the teacher and they shouldn't have to participate in it.

Ultimately i dont believe that homework is 'done' until DS has got the right answers and understands how you get to the answers. Even if that takes longer than I'd like. If i couldnt do this id make sure the teacher understood both of us were struggling to get to that point.

Help him understand the concept and get the right answers. Teacher unlikely to have time.

Tell the teacher to scrap the ladder. Talk about how soul destroying it must be for kids always at the bottom.

Since your DS is in the middle not the bottom, it can't be that all parenta are helping.