To think that Charles and Camila are actually an example of genuine love

[Noddyandbiggerears]

Yes of course I feel sorry for Diana. Yes I think being a royal has a huge impact. But they let young and are now still together and seemingly happy in their 70’s, despite a lot of shunning, negative press, etc.

@Gremlinsateit

That is true and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she had thought “he has a past or he fancies x (and y) but I Can Change Him through the Power of Lerv”, but we do differ on whether she would have accepted a proposal based on an open declaration that he would have ongoing affairs.

@Grenlinsateit, the socio-historic context though is all. It's often not what was spoken but what was unspoken that would be governing one's life choices. If you look back at Victorian literature in Europe you can see peeping between the cracks, and sometimes quite out in the open, that middle and upper class men would generally regard it as entirely normal to go to knocking shops as part of a night out with the boys. Middle and upper class women just had to get on with this. This idea that women are able to demand fidelity, which is being set out here as a feminist position, really is very new. In fact looking at the legal history of marriage, it was the unfaithful woman who could be divorced but not the unfaithful man. It's only as women began to come in large numbers to the middle class male workplace that educated women really got to spot what their men were up to. I work in the legal field and even in the 90s when I was training, it was just accepted that a large portion of married male criminal barristers stayed out every evening at the pub or bar trying to get off with their solicitors' clerks or other women whom they perceived as more lowly than them. A lot of their wives did not know, but a lot did. It's a grey area. Some women have kidded themselves throughout the ages, others have been more open-eyed. None of us can really say how aware Diana was, as there were different discourses going on in different families and these things were not treated as political issues as they commonly are now. We've been told by a farmer on this thread that farming landowners do bluntly think of the bloodline in human terms as well and so if she had been exposed to that sort of conversation in her circle, it could all just have been part of the hunting and shooting philosophy of her world.

It was certainly suggested back then. It wasn't

@derxa

It was certainly suggested back then. It wasn't

I don't know what was said in the media. I got this from a couple of people in upper class coke taking circles that I know. I agree it might not be true. But it was normal then to take coke in those circles, it would come round after dinner parties in little silver dishes with a spoon lol

We've been told by a farmer on this thread that farming landowners do bluntly think of the bloodline in human terms as well and so if she had been exposed to that sort of conversation in her circle, it could all just have been part of the hunting and shooting philosophy of her world.
No that's not quite what I meant. We do think bloodlines are important in animal breeding and in human terms. Because it's true.
Genetics are important but modern society believes in nurture not nature now. Do you think farmer's daughters think of themselves as brood mares today? No but they make jokes in that vein. Earl Spencer had a stroke and possibly dysphasia which meant he couldn't express himself well.

Genetics are important but modern society believes in nurture not nature now

I don't think 'modern society' does think that, as more and more evidence is emerging about just how crucial genes are in almost every aspect of life.

Besides, do you really think the upper classes don't care about which families they marry into? Posh people marry other posh people, and that's not simply because they're more likely to meet them. A girl like Diana was raised with the sole goal of marrying well. Not just her but her sisters too.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-353730/Diana-feared-cocaine-kill-her.html
Now while I don’t read the Daily Mail, plenty of people do, so to say that it wasn’t suggested she did coke is categorically untrue. It took me about five seconds to google “Diana did coke” and to come up with that.

I’m sure there are likely more articles, I’m frankly not particularly interested, because as OP said, coke is standard in those circles. In fact coke is standard in most circles where there is money.

The thing is that to try and portray Diana as some kind of Disney princess was never going to be sold, because she just wasn’t. yes, she married young, but that doesn’t account for all the things she did later in life, the lives she was instrumental in destroying e.g. Will Carling’s marriage just for starters.

Reality is that Diana’s dead and their marriage was already ancient history by then. Now we’re 23 years on even from her death, what point is there pointing to things that happened much longer ago than that.

@derxa

We've been told by a farmer on this thread that farming landowners do bluntly think of the bloodline in human terms as well and so if she had been exposed to that sort of conversation in her circle, it could all just have been part of the hunting and shooting philosophy of her world. No that's not quite what I meant. We do think bloodlines are important in animal breeding and in human terms. Because it's true. Genetics are important but modern society believes in nurture not nature now. Do you think farmer's daughters think of themselves as brood mares today? No but they make jokes in that vein. Earl Spencer had a stroke and possibly dysphasia which meant he couldn't express himself well.

Thanks @derxa, forgot it was you or would have said so. It's not so much the jokes or genetics I was referring to as the fact that in arranged marriage systems, it's incredibly deep rooted that marriage is for procreation and for life, no matter what else may be going on for the spouses. Certainly the males in the royal line historically have generally a reputation for having been very extramaritally active, and the wives sucked it up in exchange for the benefits and security.

Besides, do you really think the upper classes don't care about which families they marry into? Posh people marry other posh people, and that's not simply because they're more likely to meet them. A girl like Diana was raised with the sole goal of marrying well. Not just her but her sisters too. I totally agree with you

I don't think 'modern society' does think that, as more and more evidence is emerging about just how crucial genes are in almost every aspect of life. I don't think that idea has percolated through to mumsnet yet. So much anxiety and guilt here from parents on here about parenting, education etc. I wish I'd realised years ago that the angst was a complete waste of time and in fact damaging.

I don't know what was said in the media. I got this from a couple of people in upper class coke taking circles that I know. I agree it might not be true. But it was normal then to take coke in those circles, it would come round after dinner parties in little silver dishes with a spoon lol

If we are to assume Diana was a cokehead based on this, then are we to assume the same for PC and his siblings? Camilla too?

I do take your point Plumbuddle but I disagree. She was certainly constrained in her choices; she might have felt unable to complain once she found herself in the situation (though in fact she did complain, and loudly); she might even have had an entrenched view that it was normal for men to cheat, and I think her “of course” response in the “whatever in love means” interview was very odd; but at that time I do not believe she would have walked eyes open into the marriage knowing - as opposed to fearing - that he would keep up his affairs.

If we are to assume Diana was a cokehead based on this, then are we to assume the same for PC and his siblings? Camilla too?

Why would anyone assume that? I did recreational drugs in my teens and 20s, my brother didn’t.

While yes they are and have been in love they were still extremely selfish. Both of them cheated on their spouses before and after he wed Diana. To even see Camilla on the night before his marriage. She will never be a queen in my eyes and he should just step aside anyway when its his turn.

Diana's mother was only 18 when she married the 30 year old Johnny Spencer.

@LadyEloise

Diana's mother was only 18 when she married the 30 year old Johnny Spencer.

It's very interesting how these unspoken rules have changed, isn't it. I remember when I was a teen in the 70s the deal was that girls in our single sex school went to parties with boys from single sex schools two year groups ahead. That is very much a middle class norm in my university circle too, justified on the basis that girls mature earlier than boys. But yet my kids, who were at mixed high school in the 2000s, move in circles that would regard it as unusual and potentially inappropriate not to date your own year. And of course in the generation before and including Diana, as you say, it was quite the norm for a posh Englishman to sow his wild oats and then settle down to marriage at or over 30, picking a deb girl in her late teens for the purpose. Thank goodness we have moved on. I applaud Joan Collins for that. Let's have a feminist row about her now, and Joanna Lumley! They have each done so much for older women's right to sexual equality and to them Camilla can be eternally grateful

@derxa

someone on here even portrays her as some kind of cokehead? Utterly despicable

Why? Rumours at the time were strong. It's not as if she was some sort of saint.

@Sarell1967

While yes they are and have been in love they were still extremely selfish. Both of them cheated on their spouses before and after he wed Diana. To even see Camilla on the night before his marriage. She will never be a queen in my eyes and he should just step aside anyway when its his turn.

Not going to happen. If you have a hereditary monarchy, you don't get to pick and choose who succeeds. No-one cares if the occasional individual proclaims that someone will never be monarch or consort in their eyes.

The simple fact is that he lawfully married Camilla several years after Diana died, they have now been married and settled for over 15 years and it was not their fault that Diana went off with a playboy and got killed entirely avoidably. People who object to their being happily married really need to get over themselves.

I don't object to them being happily married, why would I? I do object to the thread title like it is some fabulous so moving love story we should all be in awe of.
It ain't

@IcedPurple

No, people were hypnotised by the fairy tale and for anyone to suggest that a silly debutante girl with a father who treated her as a heifer (discussed further up thread so I am not being gratuitously rude here) would have had a feminist thought about the nature of marriage and whether she should refuse fame, fortune and the world stage just to continue being a deb and marry some merchant banker then stop working at her little Kensington job, is just anachronous. She was reared for this sort of life and she got lucky with her suitor.

Yeah I agree. For a pretty aristocratic girl with little education in the late 1970s, marrying well was really the only 'career' option available. If it hadn't been Charles, it would have been some other upper-class dude who would likely also cheat on her. So why not become Princess of Wales and potentially Her Majesty the Queen instead of wife of some minor aristocrat in some draughty country estate?

If Diana were a young woman now, she'd probably be like her niece Kitty Spencer and using her looks and height to snag a modelling or acting career. But in the 1970s, marriage really was her only option, so she might as well get a crown as part of the deal.

So modelling and acting wasn't available to aristocratic girls in the late 70s? What about Rachel Ward, the grand daughter of the Earl of Dudley? She started modelling in the late 70s and starred in the very successful "Thorn Birds" in 1983 then several films.

So modelling and acting wasn't available to aristocratic girls in the late 70s? What about Rachel Ward, the grand daughter of the Earl of Dudley? She started modelling in the late 70s and starred in the very successful "Thorn Birds" in 1983 then several films

It was an option, but it was much more unusual for well-born girls of that generation to have any sort of career - expect to while away a few years before marriage - than it is today. Both of Diana's sisters married young and had no career to speak of. Diana was very much expected to do the same.

@IcedPurple

So modelling and acting wasn't available to aristocratic girls in the late 70s? What about Rachel Ward, the grand daughter of the Earl of Dudley? She started modelling in the late 70s and starred in the very successful "Thorn Birds" in 1983 then several films

It was an option, but it was much more unusual for well-born girls of that generation to have any sort of career - expect to while away a few years before marriage - than it is today. Both of Diana's sisters married young and had no career to speak of. Diana was very much expected to do the same.

Yes I remember these girls so well. There were a few of these right honourables in my school, I was a pleb and only really discovered about this side of their lives when a couple of them were talking about "coming out" (at the palace, where debs went for a big ceremony where they "graduated" as marriageable in high society) in the sixth form. That cattle market really did go on, I was so shocked to discover. It was like a secret world that I had never realised was there. To be fair they were quite few compared to the general population of the school as the school was actually very academically minded, and a number of them had left after O levels to Swiss finishing schools. I had not realised at the time why they had been taken out after their O levels, but when I heard these other girls talking about coming out, I realised what the deal was. I agree it was unusual for those posh girls to go into modelling. It was looked on in those days as "vulgar" and so you had to be a rebel in order to diverge into that arty, louche world where so many of the girls were working class. There was such a lot of snobbery. I remember a bunch of these posh girls shoplifting for fun in the Kensington store Biba, and the police came round to the school and gave us all a talk explaining to the girls that it was actually a crime, but they would overlook it this time.

Jane Fellowes was 21 and Sarah Mc Corquodale was 25 when they got married.

@Plumbuddle

I suspect that even now, a lot of upper class gels consider marryng wll their main goal in life. They may not be up-front about it as it's not 'cool', they will attend university rather than finishing school, pursue some sort of career and get married rather later than Diana did, but once they're marrried, they'll quietly give up their jobs and become upper-class yummy mummies.

only really discovered about this side of their lives when a couple of them were talking about "coming out" (at the palace, where debs went for a big ceremony where they "graduated" as marriageable in high society) in the sixth form

You must be even more ancient than me @Plumbuddle, the Queen got rid of presentation at court in the 1950s.

[quote IcedPurple]@Plumbuddle

I suspect that even now, a lot of upper class gels consider marryng wll their main goal in life. They may not be up-front about it as it's not 'cool', they will attend university rather than finishing school, pursue some sort of career and get married rather later than Diana did, but once they're marrried, they'll quietly give up their jobs and become upper-class yummy mummies.[/quote]
Yes, and once again I was shocked to see this at Bar School in 1989. One or two girls were well known to be studying for the Bar for the pure purpose of finding a high up judge to marry. I just did not believe the gossip I heard then but then they went on to do exactly that and dumped their training.

@VinylDetective

only really discovered about this side of their lives when a couple of them were talking about "coming out" (at the palace, where debs went for a big ceremony where they "graduated" as marriageable in high society) in the sixth form

You must be even more ancient than me @Plumbuddle, the Queen got rid of presentation at court in the 1950s.

No this would have been in about 1975-6. I know they were talking about being debutantes and you're right, others were discussing how the actual presentation had recently stopped. But they were still regarded amongst their families as debs and it was clearly how they all still talked, otherwise I would not have come upon that slang "deb". I remember I moved schools to a state school in the midst of that year and the girls there were in stitches about that story. One girl scoffed, "So what do they wear to the ball then? Jeans and a tiara?" lol