To ask if you approve of the pay rise for nurses and doctors?

[Retiremental]

Blown away by some of the negativity on a ‘Health care professionals’ facebook group which seems to be populated by anything BUT HCP’s

It should be done in conjunction with a raise for physios, OTs, SALT, dietitians etc. Drs and Nurses aren’t anymore deserving than other HCPs

But surely physios aren't working on covid wards?

Physios definitely are working with covid patients. For example even elderly patients who have covid can manage at home but they've presented with a fall. It's more risky for them to stay in hospital so the physios still provide assessments and support to them so they can cope safely at home

@RosesAndHellebores I can assure you that the CAMHS service I work with has been providing face to face and continued to do NDD & MH assessments right through lockdown, in fact we had no hiatus of service whatsoever. I am paid for 37.5 hours a week and average 44-50 hours a week every week.
Might be useful if you can comment on a particular trust/ service and not be so fucking rude and disrespectful.

@user1497787065

I would have accepted a pay cut to have had the opportunity to remain employed. I was made redundant in September.

So fed up of hearing how tough it is for NHS staff and how they deserve a pay increase. They have the most generous pension scheme in existence.

Perhaps you could define why it is so generous? Do you know what it actually is?

@Dannydevitoiloveyourart

I used to work 8.5 hours (or until the work was finished) and then be on call all night. For a week at a time. I think you’ll find many clinical staff do on call in addition to their normal working hours. Which are 37.5 for everyone regardless of whether you’re doing 12 hour shifts or 8 hour days. 12 hour shifts became more common because the nursing staff liked doing condensed hours...

Why is this based on covid alone though ! Regardless of covid their wages are not correct. They haven’t only just become important because of covid.
They have been saving lives for years !
They have been working with infectious diseases for years.

@Whattheactual20201

Why is this based on covid alone though ! Regardless of covid their wages are not correct. They haven’t only just become important because of covid. They have been saving lives for years ! They have been working with infectious diseases for years.

@Whattheactual20201 agreed. But I don't think it was as publicised like it has been this year. That includes all key workers. Delivery drivers, supermarket staff and so on. We were all shown in the media and online that actually we the ordinary folk are the ones that contribute. Not the mps not the influencers not the bankers etc etc. Yes of course most of us knew that but with the pandemic I believe it's made more realise that it's us. The people. That keep the country running and that how shit we've all been treated for years especially under a Tory government. (My opinion. I do not want to start a political debate)

I think care workers need a huge pay increase. They work back breaking work, sometimes for minimum wage

I am a high band 5 nurse I'd never want to be band 6, but mostly I just want our band 2 hcas to be recognised for their hard work. I work in a really specialised theatres and the only thing the hcas don't do that we do is scrub up and hand things to surgeons, they set up for surgeries, they're there within 20 mins on call for lung transplants, they help us transfer to icu after the operations, they help us set up for the next day, they do all the paperwork (apart from signing for specimens), they stock up the equipment; they call estates if things go wrong in theatre, they do all the paperwork for specimens, they clean down after and between operations, they help move the patients, they get blood for the patient, they order scopes for bronchoscopies, they check each and every single piece of equipment before an operation, will help me check all my sets during an operation, will count all the disposable pieces of equipment many many times during the operation etc etc etc

And they get paid £18005 a year, which is £1335 a month which is barely above minimum wage

I get paid £30615 as a top of band 5 nurse and the only difference to in my particular role between me and my colleagues who get paid £18005 is the fact I went to uni when it was still affordable and I hand equipment to surgeons and need to know where every single piece of equipment is at all times.

So yes I agree that nurses need payrises but we also need to recognise that hcas will leave if we don't increase their pay so I would forgo my increment so my colleagues could get at least 21k

Rant over

@FMyUterus

I am a high band 5 nurse I'd never want to be band 6, but mostly I just want our band 2 hcas to be recognised for their hard work. I work in a really specialised theatres and the only thing the hcas don't do that we do is scrub up and hand things to surgeons, they set up for surgeries, they're there within 20 mins on call for lung transplants, they help us transfer to icu after the operations, they help us set up for the next day, they do all the paperwork (apart from signing for specimens), they stock up the equipment; they call estates if things go wrong in theatre, they do all the paperwork for specimens, they clean down after and between operations, they help move the patients, they get blood for the patient, they order scopes for bronchoscopies, they check each and every single piece of equipment before an operation, will help me check all my sets during an operation, will count all the disposable pieces of equipment many many times during the operation etc etc etc

And they get paid £18005 a year, which is £1335 a month which is barely above minimum wage

I get paid £30615 as a top of band 5 nurse and the only difference to in my particular role between me and my colleagues who get paid £18005 is the fact I went to uni when it was still affordable and I hand equipment to surgeons and need to know where every single piece of equipment is at all times.

So yes I agree that nurses need payrises but we also need to recognise that hcas will leave if we don't increase their pay so I would forgo my increment so my colleagues could get at least 21k

Rant over

@FMyUterus could not agree more. I felt a bit sad going into blues noticing the level of respect I received changed from some drs etc. I work as a nurse in the same department I was a hca in so really notice it more. I posted upthread about a consultant who had to wear hca scrubs and wrote a blog about how differently she was treated

@Everybodyfednobodydead it's just shit isn't it? We have a lot of trainee nurse associates and there a couple of hcas and the tnas get paid 19k straight off the bat, but a band 2 hca who's been there 25 years and is amazing gets paid 19k as a max salary and tnas go on to do placements and nursing degrees and never Come back so we lose staff.

It's awful, we initially had different hats for unqualified and qualified staff but the surgeons hated it so we're now all equal. Unless you see your colleagues badge you could be working with a hca, a tna, a quailed nurse or a surgeons assistant. You don't know. If you're not scrubbed up everyone is circulating, we need to acknowledge our hcas more

This year health care workers have had to deal with such long hours and some even sent their children away to keep them safe and carried on working. Of course they deserve a pay rise and so do paramedics who also worked until breaking point. My dh is s civil servant and won't get s pay rise. Every time the country is short of money civil servant are an easy target. The people who don't deserve an additional £3k is government ministers. Their pay should be linked to civil servants pay.

@FMyUterus it really is shit. I had a theatre placement as a student and really liked we all had the same scrubs. We did have handwritten badges with our name and job status on though but I saw the difference in the communication and respect.
Of course as doctors and qualified staff we do need to show our level for different scenarios. But for example I was rarely called my name on placements. I was referred to as "the student" when I have years of a&e experience that could've helped. I myself and hcas with 20 years experience have been looked down on and received snide comments from 21 year old only just out of school nurses and jr doctor's (not disrespecting them but uni lectures can't provide you with the real life experience you need) when they're comments are completely valid and correct. I will say though I have worked with many drs who would valued my opinion and would ask me questions. I just hate seeing experienced and competent colleagues feeling undervalued because they're not regarded highly

@Everybodyfednobodydead I agree with everything you said. It saddens me so much how much some qualified staff squash the joy out of fresh faced students, I am the learning lead where I work so I oversee the mentors and the students. And I always ask the students if they could have chosen their own mentor who would it have been and why? And I like to challenge my mentees and keep them fresh, if students don't like them and it's many students then their must be a reason, if you hear hooves think horses not zebras.. lots of nurses are shit mentors but it's not the students fault they're crap at teaching so I've taken peoples mentor status off them. You're not ticking a re validation box at the detriment to future nurses on my watch.

@caringcarer

This year health care workers have had to deal with such long hours and some even sent their children away to keep them safe and carried on working. Of course they deserve a pay rise and so do paramedics who also worked until breaking point. My dh is s civil servant and won't get s pay rise. Every time the country is short of money civil servant are an easy target. The people who don't deserve an additional £3k is government ministers. Their pay should be linked to civil servants pay.

@caringcarer the whole system is fucked. I went to hide this thread but I feel so passionate about this. All year we have been praised. Not just nhs but every single person who has worked throughout the pandemic and now it feels like a kick in the vag. Also people who have worked so hard and ended up losing money through furlough or job lossess. There are a minority of "key workers" I work with some myself who feel superior and are incensed our parking payment has been increased to help cover loans and furlough payments when they've worked hard. I am annoyed I have to pay more but not because I feel the furloughed workers were sat on their arses. Definitely not. I don't know anyone who was furloughed who were happy about it. I have friends who have lost their jobs and are struggling and whilst it's been tough I'm extremely grateful I have a job to go to. I just feel, like I've said in pp, that again it's us normal folk trying our best for pennies that are again expected to foot the bill. I can only speak for myself but I am pissed off I have worked so hard for a career as a nurse but as a single mum I still need benefits to provide for children. I can't even imagine being able to book a holiday abroad. I know that's first world problems but my oldest is 12 and I've never been able to that. I scrape by pay day to pay day. It's bloody wrong

@FMyUterus wow I wish I had a lead like you. I worked 3 years of placements in the same hospital and never even saw our trust lead. And it was a very small hospital. I'm currently doing my mentor training. I had some brilliant ones but some awful ones and they're the ones you remember. I hated feeling I was a nuisance and that they couldn't even be arsed to learn my name

@Everybodyfednobodydead it's because I had shit mentors I'm trying to change things, I want third year students to apply for jobs with us and stay! I must bore my colleagues to tears but they are the future and we can't tell them all the shit about the job on day one!

@FMyUterus keep boring them. I was 27 starting my degree so classed as mature and had years of experience behind me but even I felt intimidated and "bullied" by some mentors (not the exact word but can't explain) I saw a lot of younger students who would've made fantastic nurses leave the course because of it. Feels such a waste. It's fab there's still experienced and passionate people like yourself to help guide students. I do worry there won't be many wanting to study soon

Some of the comments on this thread are utterly depressing. People can judge worthiness all they like but the reality is that many public sector jobs have huge recruitment and retention problems due to poor pay and conditions. If you want people working in those jobs then that needs to improve. Or alternatively we look at private healthcare but when you consider that my profession is paid more than double in the US I think it’s unlikely that it’s going to cost you less than the 1% or whatever pay rise (some of which will be clawed back in tax and reduced benefits payments). People think nothing of paying £200 for new designer glasses or Botox etc yet quibble over every penny for public servants.

As people have said other public sector workers got a pay rise when the NHS did not but they should be getting a raise at least in line with inflation. More for teachers as they have considerable workforce issues too

@FlorenceNightshade as you know all NHS staff are assessed against agenda for change criteria, if other HCP are on a higher grade than band 5 they are taking more responsibility and have a job description that justifies that grade. Rather than calling the doctor over they’re expected to sort the treatment themselves. They could well be independent prescribers. Some other healthcare professionals (e.g. psychologists, pharmacists) have considerably longer training to qualify than nurses aswell.

I very much approve of the pay rise for people in the NHS.

I do not approve of the way other public sector workers are being treated.

I absolutely abhor the “divide and rule” tactics being employed to stoke division and resentment.

Regarding the physios of course they would be working on covid wards. Physios have a lot of input in respiratory illness.

So the other members of the NHS are all important we spent 2 years in a hospital.

From the minute my daughter went in to cardiac arrest - the paramedics who worked so hard to get her to respond- to the a&e doctors who got her heart starting again, the radiologists / microbiologists / junior doctors / consultants / nurses / specialist nurses who with a joint combination helped save her plus in this instance physio who did faulty chest exercises when she suffered back to back pneumonia.

• the the Physio team who after her transplant and the stroke helped her walk again, the Play therapists who made her smile again, the health care assistances who basically kept us going the entire time. The occupational therapist who helped her regain her co ordination, the speech and language therapist who helped her regain her swallow and speech. The dietitian who kept her alive making sure she the right nutrition when your heart goes it tends to cut the flow to your bowel first. To the cleaners who made sure that things were cleaned before she was moved in to things and keep the wards as safe as they can be.

The admin who makes sure her notes are in order and where they need to be when needed for the right treatment. The bed managers who make sure she has ana appropriate bed for surgeries and stays. They all do so much and some of them don’t earn enough of what they are worth. They are a team not one set of people who run the place.

It's a shame it's a sweeping payrise. I know what I'd give my own GP this year if I had a choice and it wouldn't be a payrise! I do agree with people that earned it this year getting one but I haven't been able to access healthcare since March. I have had a lot of trouble with my health.

My friend also was rejected from his gp and is now in icu. This must be happening a lot this year. My own 6yo dd broke her arm and it took 4 hours to get her into a&e just get past the doors all while she's in pain because we had to 'book an appointment at a&e' and we were told she was fine and didn't need treatment, then the nurses said she didn't need treatment and if we wanted to go home we could. Until I pushed and pushed for an X-ray and I unfortunately proved them wrong. By this time it's 1am and the 6yo has gone silent for a few hours in absolute pain. Not a fan of the nhs myself, there is a lot better health services across Europe.

@user1497787065

I would have accepted a pay cut to have had the opportunity to remain employed. I was made redundant in September.

So fed up of hearing how tough it is for NHS staff and how they deserve a pay increase. They have the most generous pension scheme in existence.

You're more than welcome to come and join the NHS. There's plenty of opportunities for all different roles.

@GurpsAgain

It should be done in conjunction with a raise for physios, OTs, SALT, dietitians etc. Drs and Nurses aren’t anymore deserving than other HCPs

But surely physios aren't working on covid wards?

What? Yes, of course they are. Read the thread and educate yourselves.

Physios are literally working the chest of covid patients, and positioning, and rehabilitating.

I'm a SALT and examine the mouth of covid patients and get coughed on when assessing their swallow which is damaged due to their respiratory difficulties and ventilation tubes. If people don't eat and drink, they die. If they can't swallow, I have to decide if feeding by a tube will be a good outcome, or the patient will die.

It's not just doctors and nurses looking after covid patients, it takes a whole NHS to get everyone through.

Unfortunately much of salary is not just a function of danger and hard work. If it were, many other professions would also be included.

A lot of salary is dependent on rarity - and I think the nhs jobs where there are a large number of vacancies in particular should have a larger pay rise. Though I think pay rises for everyone who does front line work would be welcome and positive for morale. If we want healthcare provision to be good in the future we need to do this. Seeing if there was a way to get out of PFI (or at least stop it’s expansion) would be a positive and better in the long term.