To think it's a straight choice between keeping your parents and grandparents safe and "a normal Christmas". You can't have both.

[PrincessNutNuts]

If members of your household go to work/school/the gym/the pub/ the shops or anywhere indoors with other people,

And if you don't all self-isolate for 14 days before Christmas,

Then you risk giving Covid to your parents and grandparents if you mix with them indoors during those 5 days.

That's just a fact isn't it?

YANBU Yes, you will be risking unknowingly endangering your loved ones,

YABU ???

Honestly OP, you’re being very ageist.
Many healthy older people, me included, would rather live our lives rather than die of loneliness from the isolation you seem desperate to impose on us 😳

Surely everyone’s risk assessment has to include other people not just the households you mix with over Christmas. Grandparents may not be old or unhealthy, they may be out and about as usual. So could be at risk of passing it to you not the other way round. If you have school aged children and are meeting with different households then there is a risk that they could take COVID to school.

I think it could be carnage in both NHS and schools in January and February

@ironicj that’s strange. All the doctors I know say their hospitals are fairly quiet for the time of year.

And given that more people are dying from suicide in London than Covid, do you think it is ethical to inflict more restrictions on healthy people that will result in escalating loneliness, mental health problems, bankruptcy and homelessness etc, etc?

Life is all about taking calculated risks.

@FreshFreesias

That's great for all the doctors you know, I can only talk for my trust, which is not doing well. At all.

I haven't said anything about imposing further restrictions. I have said I don't think that the government saying multiple houses can mix for 5 days over Christmas is a good idea.

ironicj Surely as a A+E Dr you can see the effect that the last 9 months have had on people and that isolation from family over Christmas is only going to increase self harm and suicide?

I'll just play by what my relatives want to do.

By Christmas Day, my DCs won't have been in their small primary school for a week, so that risk is halved. DH WFH, I'm a SAHM, our lifestyle is low risk.

One old relative, the rest are all lower risk. Older relative is likely to have already had the virus; certainly aquired a nasty chest infection in hospital in Feb in an area that had an early surge in numbers.

I've unknowingly spent plenty of last Christmasses with family members. Covid or not, it's presumptuous to assume that many more Christmasses are guarenteed.

You have more choices than you think OP.

You could also choose to endanger both sets or neither as well.

DPs and DGPs could also choose to socialise with one another and not with you! If they are leading less outwardly facing lives than your household, that could be a very safe option.

My point is, you often have more choice than you realise, you’ve just discarded some without even thinking about them.

I was talking about my grandads choice to take risk. He is the person at risk when he sees me and hugs me (I am working, living life pretty much as normal). He knows that. He knows I could have covid. But my point is that it is HIS decision to take that risk.

I do personally believe that it should be a personal responsibility rather than guilting people with things like ‘you’ll kill your granny’. Granny decided to leave her house and see her grandkids, that risk is her responsibility. I don’t think anyone should judge old people for wanting to put themselves at risk. That’s a human right.

@Nicknacky I have seen some of that. But I've seen a lot more of covid. That's my experience.

My ideal situation would be that if people are finding it very difficult at Christmas and are at risk, then of course they should not be alone. Believe it or not I don't want people to be suicidal. But then the rest of us, the majority of us, who are not at risk of suicide, would accept that we have a low key Christmas with our household/unit.

ironicj It’s not black or white. So don’t judge people for spending time with friends and family.

To be fair, you won’t see the suicides. I do.

parents (80s) are taking the line that they would rather have quality time and take the risk. their choice

YANBU

@Nicknacky I don't know what you do so I can't have a meaningful conversation about it, but clearly we have very different experiences which have gone towards shaping our experiences.

I'm entitled to my opinion that multiple households mixing over Christmas, for the sake of it/tradition/'because it's Christmas', with the exclusion of those at risk with their mental health, is not worth the resulting covid onslaught.

It's been said that many older people are more likely to die from depression /loneliness/ due to being isolated than they are from Covid. I get that. If people are sensible then it's a very small risk seeing your parents but means so much to have that contact. I have seen my mum throughout and she is in our bubble anyway. Most older people are quite able to decide for themselves and the vast majority will say they would take the minor risk over not seeing their family every time.

This is why I’m only seeing my parents outside this Christmas. It sucks, I want a normal Christmas but I can’t have one because of my job. But it’s just one year. At least I can see them.

ironicj I think this is one of those occasions that posters need to be mindful when someone claims to be in a certain profession, and I include myself in that.

We've made the decision to not see anyone outside of our house. Our children are finishing school on the 11th but DH is NHS so we can't self isolate to protect them while he is coming and going to work. We've come this far, we can wait till the vaccine program is rolled out. I worry about hospital admissions capacity in the weeks following Christmas.

Unfortunately we don't all have a choice

I will be helping my father care for my disabled mum who is wheelchair bound, unable to communicate and coming out of rehab at the beginning of December. I will also be having to work over Christmas as I am a radio operator for thr police. Dh will also be staying and working as he is also a police officer.

The alternative is leaving my 76 year old dad alone with a newly disabled wife in a completely new living situation. So no option at all really

@Nicknacky ok then, all the best

People need to make their own decisions. People over 65 don't suddenly lose capacity once they reach that milestone and done if the ageism on here is awful.

Everyone is entitled to weigh up the risks for themselves. I got a shielding letter which I completely ignored as not going out would have driven me round the bend (although I wfh). I gave short shrift to the snotty kid who phoned from the council telling me I was putting my life at risk.

As long as you done put relatives under pressure then everyone gets to decide their own level of risk.

I won’t be seeing anyone outside of our household, except for maybe a drink in the garden if it’s nice weather. That’s our decision. However I don’t think you can blame people for choosing to see each other when it’s within the rules. The restrictions will be in place for months we have been told, so of course people want to take advantage of this opportunity to mix. People miss their families.

I’m a bit pissed off at the policy though. People have sacrificed so much to stop the NHS getting overwhelmed and now there’s every chance it might get overwhelmed in January, which does really worry me (genuinely very happy to be told that I’m wrong and this definitely won’t happen, because I really hope it doesn’t happen).

Yes, that is why we are planning to self-isolate for 14 days to safely go and stay with my high risk mum at Christmas. Her present from us is going to be being able to hug us and the kids which she hasn't done since February! (We are obviously giving actual presents too...)

If I was elderly I would much prefer to take a chance a Christmas with my family.

But lots of grandparents are not all that old and many are key workers. Both my parents have been communicating to work on public transport throughout,even at the height of the first lockdown. They have barely seen any of us all year so as they would like to see us at Christmas I don't think they will want us to be judged for taking up the invitation.

I've just had this conversation with my 82 yo DM, we've only seen her twice this year and she has been on her own most of the time since March (we're in different parts of the UK so different rules meant we couldn't bubble etc).

DP and I are permanently WFH now, our DC are at school til 18th but we'll stop any out of school stuff (if it has even started again) the week before, and we won't do any of the other usual Xmas social stuff. So she's coming for 3 nights and she cried when I called her to arrange it this afternoon.

I'm sure some people will judge, I can't 100% defend it and do slightly feel like we're doing something wrong, but that's what this whole shitty situation has done to us I guess. Maybe I'll feel less guilty when I realise several houses over the road have five or six cars parked outside on Xmas Eve and can judge them instead