To think it's a straight choice between keeping your parents and grandparents safe and "a normal Christmas". You can't have both.

[PrincessNutNuts]

If members of your household go to work/school/the gym/the pub/ the shops or anywhere indoors with other people,

And if you don't all self-isolate for 14 days before Christmas,

Then you risk giving Covid to your parents and grandparents if you mix with them indoors during those 5 days.

That's just a fact isn't it?

YANBU Yes, you will be risking unknowingly endangering your loved ones,

YABU ???

*fit

Lots of people seem to be making decisions based on their perception of their own risk or the perception of risk to vulnerable family members.

What gets ignored is that it isnt just about the people who may directly get sick. There are also the people who will need to care for the people who get sick - family members, care home workers, hospital staff - and therefore increase their own risk of getting sick.

Nobody is asking their opinion.

The new rules haven't changed our plans. My in-laws are welcome to come but there is no pressure from us. I wish the schools had broken up earlier so we could limit the risks. I think we'll be on our own.

Exactly Gnome And there's also the other people who will have delayed medical care as hospitals fill up with Covid cases and cut down on other treatments. If people who are carrying out their own risk assessments, have factored in "and if I get sick I will just stay at home and not expect anyone else to look after me or provide medical care" then I'm very happy for them. Unfortunately I doubt they have. They've all risk assessed on the probability that they won't catch anything and if they do it will be mild, and not actually worked through the scenario of what if someone gets it badly.

My parents are vulnerable, and we've discussed it. They are happy to wait til new year, by which point we'll have been able to isolate for 2 weeks. I'm a secondary school teacher, dd1 is a uni student and dd2 is at primary school, dh wfh. So we can actually do 2 weeks of not seeing anyone, and we don't mind having a quiet Christmas at home on our own (it's our preferred option tbh).

My brother lives with our parents, so there'll be 3 of them. My sister and her kids would normally go up for a few days, but they won't be doing that either. They're sticking with the friends they have as a support bubble near where they live. And we'll Skype as a family on Christmas Day.

It won't be our normal Christmas, but it will be as safe as possible so we can hopefully enjoy many more normal Christmases with everyone still here.

YABU
1- because you are assuming it’s the younger people who are wanting to have. Christmas with elderly relatives. And that they are automatically the ones who will spread the disease
2- because you are assuming that ‘keeping elderly alive’ is always better than ‘spending Christmas together’.

So in our case, FIL is terminally ill. This is his last Christmas. There won’t be another one with him.
We are not going to decide for him what is best. If he wants christmas with his whole family. That’s what will happen. If he wants a small gathering because he is too exhausted, that’s what will be.
If he wants to stay at home and see no one that’s ok too.

But he has already spent the last 10 months shielding and seeing more or less no one. I think he is entitled to chose who he sees at this time of the year.

I completely agree, people just don't want to hear it. I think we'll be spending Christmas alone.

As for @GnomeDePlume comment.

Yes in some ways, I agree. However, in our case, FIL is likely to be in hospital/care home/palliative care very soon. It’s not going to make a difference (unfortunately)

You can't blanket it - my mum and dad live with us - over 70 both with health conditions. We are working - dd is going to school. We are careful re washing/ sanitising etc but what is the alternative? They move out?

@RedskyAtnight I agree 100%.

YANBU in theory - I don't think we should be mixing as a rule. But I think there's also an element of assessing risk and not everyone's parents or grandparents are fragile and have been sheltering at home.

For example, the people we normally spend Christmas with (my mum and sister) are not high risk - 55 and 27, both in good health. But both of them have refused to engage with any of the restrictions and my sister is currently on holiday (yep!) as well as randomly declaring people 'in her bubble' on the days she wants to see them. Both work in customer facing jobs. So we've decided to spend Christmas at home because they're more of a risk to us than the other way round - I'm not doing it to protect my mum, I'm doing it to protect myself and the people I come into contact with!

@ironicj

I completely agree, people just don't want to hear it. I think we'll be spending Christmas alone.

Why on earth would I tell my mother, a nurse, and my stepmother, a teacher, that they can’t possibly spend Christmas with us as it would be too dangerous for them to be in our company?

Even if you’re happy to mix with family at Christmas and risk your health, people seem to have forgotten the likelihood of the virus spreading to people who have no choice to work without any ppe protection in January-like teachers.

I can if I don't have any parents/grandparents. The oldest person we would ever meet up with around Christmas is my very fit 61 yr old BIL!

And maybe the older grandparents were prefer to take their chances? You shouldn't impose your company on them if they would rather minimise risk , but if they would rather see you then I think that is their choice.

@Happymum12345

Even if you’re happy to mix with family at Christmas and risk your health, people seem to have forgotten the likelihood of the virus spreading to people who have no choice to work without any ppe protection in January-like teachers.

My stepmother who is a teacher will be socialising with us over Christmas.

My kids both break up for from school on the 18th December, how can they possibly self isolate for 14 days before seeing anybody for Christmas?

Happymum12345 So presumably teachers will be spending Christmas just with the people they live with?

Or how about we stop judging people. Stay home alone if you won’t but stop with the judgement and fake guilt trips.

What I don’t get is that all along we have been done to follow the rules strictly and now it’s make your own decision. I’m in NI and we haven’t been allowed to meet in people’s houses for months unless you’re in a bubble. You can bubble with one other household, it doesn’t have to be someone who lives alone. But at Christmas you’ll be allowed to cram loads of people into your house. What could possibly go wrong?

My PIL want us to come round for Christmas but still socially distance. So if I go I’ll spend my time trying to keep a crawling, climbing baby away from them. The thought of it is exhausting- and the worry about potentially giving them Covid. I’ve written Christmas off mentally this year and just hope by next year things are different.

emilyoster.substack.com/p/safety-turducken

50 percent of cases show up in 5 days of self isolating - this article gives you some tools on evaluating the risks and what you can do.

I think if I had under 5s I'd decide it wasn't worth the stress trying to keep them 2 m away!

@GnomeDePlume

Lots of people seem to be making decisions based on their perception of their own risk or the perception of risk to vulnerable family members.

What gets ignored is that it isnt just about the people who may directly get sick. There are also the people who will need to care for the people who get sick - family members, care home workers, hospital staff - and therefore increase their own risk of getting sick.

Nobody is asking their opinion.

Exactly. As we have been told all along, it’s not just about your own personal situation but about the risk of spreading it to others.

While it’s understandable that an elderly person might want to see family as they may not have many years ahead of them, they might end up passing it on to a younger person who ends up dying or with a lifetime disability as a result.

The hospitals near me are very full at the moment, the last thing we need is to get more Covid cases after the Christmas madness.

*Happymum12345
Even if you’re happy to mix with family at Christmas and risk your health, people seem to have forgotten the likelihood of the virus spreading to people who have no choice to work without any ppe protection in January-like teachers.*

I teach. School is where I caught Covid and ended up ill for a number of weeks. Only just returned.

I will still be seeing family over Christmas.
I'm going to be really upset if I end up on self isolation following a bubble closure over that time, I know that for sure!!

Yawn. So bored of reading these judgemental and sweeping statements. My mum is manager of a nursing home and also nurses on the floor as needed. She has underlying conditions but had COVID end of may. My step dad never caught it from her. My grandma is 91 and does not want to be alone at Christmas. She’s never had a days illness in her life and has been out every day since March. Tbh, it’s up to them if they want us to spend Christmas together (I have school aged kids). It is not my decision to make. They can weigh up the risks for themselves!

@WeCanFlyHigher I think the govt should not be encouraging household mixing at the moment. I'm an A&E doctor working with lots of covid positive patients. Call me selfish but I don't think Christmas is a big enough excuse to to add so much fuel to this fire, when it's me and my colleagues who will be at so much more risk putting out this fire.
So I will be practising what I preach and keeping away from my family to keep them safe.

I'm no specialist or expert on covid 19. But I've seen a lot more of it than most people. It is bigger than our right to a 'normal Christmas'.