To think it's a straight choice between keeping your parents and grandparents safe and "a normal Christmas". You can't have both.

[PrincessNutNuts]

If members of your household go to work/school/the gym/the pub/ the shops or anywhere indoors with other people,

And if you don't all self-isolate for 14 days before Christmas,

Then you risk giving Covid to your parents and grandparents if you mix with them indoors during those 5 days.

That's just a fact isn't it?

YANBU Yes, you will be risking unknowingly endangering your loved ones,

YABU ???

Nothing about any of this is about "keeping safe" individuals. It's about reducing overall transmission rates which reduces,but doesn't eliminate, risk for all of us and reducing the number of people who are seriously ill and in need of hospital treatment.
The way people keep taling about it as "we" are protecting (or not) certain loved individuals is building up for a generation feeling appalling guilt.

I do think the Christmas mixing is madness though, not on an individual level but for everyone. Regardless of what we do, my parents' risk will be greatly increased after Christmas because of everyone else mixing over Christmas.

I'm childcare for my dgd. I'm 41. I also work in a school and live with my 70 year old recently widowed dad. Thankfully he is healthy, but I've no choice but to crack on with my job and looking after little one. I can't see we're making any difference by spending Christmas with my dd and dgd now.

Surely it depends on the age of the parents and grandparents. My mum is in her 40s and my nan is in her 60s and still working full time. She is in a support bubble with me but I was still wary of seeing her a few weeks ago because of cases nearby, she pointed out she has to get public transport every day and works for the nhs. She could just as easily pass it to us and is happy to still see us.

My DC go to a large secondary school. We get a new positive Covid case reported practically every day. I think it would be madness to mix with my elderly/vulnerable parents of inlaws over Christmas (a few days after term ends). If tiers allow, we might consider meeting at the end of the school holiday.

Unfortunately my parents are of the view that Covid is just another thing and are perfectly fine to mix with us. Which would be ok, but if they do catch it, that has an impact on other people - so it's not their decision to make. Plus if we gave them Covid, we'd have to live with that for ever.

These responses suggest we can expect a nice big spike after Christmas as many decided the risk was worth it

Given that ILs have carers in 4 times a day they are more of a risk to us than the other way round. But as seeing family is the only thing that gives severely disabled 82yo MIL any pleasure in life now we'll take it on the chin.

Oh stop with the guilt trips again. Mind your own business and met people do what suits them. If you want to stay in forever and see your family on zoom for a year then do so.

Well I’m going to say YANBU because you are correct that there is a risk. But also YABU because there is a risk in everything we ever do, and not all risks are equal.

And these guidelines have never been about removing all risk from people’s lives.

My MIL is very blase about covid (shes in her mid 80s) FIL not so much (hes the same age) but MIL is basically the boss and will probably insist we all (about 20 people) go to their 2 bed house as usual.
Weve decided we don't think its a good idea, and hoping that if the vaccine is fairly imminent next year, it won't be long til we can see them with less risk.

My ILs are in their mid fifties, BIL lives at home and is 20. All in very good health. DH and I wfh. All able to have minimal contact with other people in the run up to Christmas. None of us planning to do anything but occasional shop visits and infrequent distanced outdoor meetings before and after.

I think the risk is pretty damn small, and I say that as someone with long covid (8m).

My DM and my PILs are all in their 70s. FIL still goes out to work every day. None of them are particularly concerned, they generally follow the rules although not to a T and they are certainly not overly cautious. My DM in particular can be a bit of a liability, she doesn't SD with anyone (e.g. delivery drivers, in shops, when meeting friends outside for walks). They all take every opportunity to carry on with their normal lives e.g. they are not minimising the number of times they pop to the shops, going to garden centres, basically going to whatever is open to get out as much as possible.

Me and DH both WFH and rarely do anything, 95% of our shopping is delivered bar the odd pint of milk or loaf we need to pick up mid week. I feel they are much more likely to pass the virus onto us, and if anything it is us who are reluctant to meet indoors over Xmas whereas they would probably all be up for pushing the rules and having a bigger get together if we would go along with it.

whilst I accept that everyone will do their own risk assessments and there is no black and white answers,
its not

• if you mix at christmas you will kill your nan
• if you decide not to mix you are committing to staying indoors for the next year

We saw our IL outdoors in the summer and went out for a meal. We hope they might get the vaccine early next year and if restrictions allow will see them in spring.

We’re both in our 60s and want to see our family. Fortunately they realise we’re reasonably intelligent adults who are fully capable of making our own decisions.

Yep. Both sets of parents for us are in their 70s and live some distance away so we can’t just pop over. We are wfh but kids are in school so I wouldn’t travel to see parents until at least one week after end of term which doesn’t really fit with the allotted bubble time. Case rates would have to be much lower than they currently are before I felt comfortable being indoors with them for any length of time. I suspect most of us are going to be kept in fairly heavy restrictions until Xmas so it’s possible cases will fall quite a bit.
In laws are quite blasé about it as they were tier 1 and popping to other people’s houses before lockdown (which happened just as their rates were shooting up). My parents were tier 3 and more cautious having not seen anyone properly since summer.

If you mix at Christmas and it turns out that no one involved has Covid, you will neither kill your Granny nor spread Covid around the community. As we don't know until later if we have Covid then we have to assess the risk that all three happen of: a) one of us might have picked it up somewhere, b) it's passed it on, c) it makes someone vulnerable very ill.

Statistically, more people don't have Covid than do. And we know the circumstances in which you are most likely to catch it, so if we're able to avoid those circumstances we can reduce the risk of picking it up.

How important is it to each person to meet at Christmas? Might it be someone's last (again, we don't know), is someone desperate to see the others and just about holding on until Christmas?

It is everyone's responsibility to keep them and their loved ones safe, and to a certain extent the wider population. But do their own risk assessment.

No need to put yourselves at risk for a Christmas gathering, not when we've come this far. Why throw in the towel now?

I agree OP. My parents are high risk and we won't be seeing them this Christmas (we haven't seen them indoors all year). This is their choice - if they were willing to take the risk I'd be happy to have them.

I teach but have recently had Covid. I hope that might mean Ive some immunity, and very low risk of carrying it or catching it again by Christmas.
Dd is a student but will have been tested before coming home. Only other person she'll see out of the house before Christmas will be her boyfriend, who's also being careful as he's vulnerable.
Dh (or Dd) didn't appear to get it from me but I guess they may well have done and had no symptoms. Dh is working but his office is very good with safety measures, and he's only in work 50%. When he sees clients it is masked or behind screens.

MIL (low 70s) is coming to us on Christmas Day. The alternative is for her to be home alone as FIL died in April.

I'd like to see my parents on Boxing Day but waiting to see what they decide. They are mid to late 60s but reasonably healthy. They're in a childcare bubble with my sister and BIL, for the care of my 7y nephew. They're a 3 hour drive so not seen them for weeks and it's not really doable in a day.

If we don't see my parents we will see BIL and our nieces instead. They're in a support bubble with MIL, though BIL can't be with her on Christmas Day this year due to the girls.

I don't have elderly grandparents to consider as both my nanas (both early 90s) died this spring/summer.

Everyone is making their own risk assessments, even those who are older and/or vulnerable. So long as no one is forced into it.

Yes it is a risk. I also risk giving them any other bug or virus I may pick up. Life is full of risks. Do you not agree that every person should have the right to decide what risks they are willing to take in life?

My grandad could die any day (due to non covid illness), he is super high risk and yet he still wants to see his family, hug his grandchildren. That is his risk to take. I know I would feel that same as him if I wasn't sure how long I had on this earth, I would rather take a risk and be with my loved ones, than potentially die whilst waiting for things to be 'safe'.

If we don't have the right to decide what risks we want to take and expose our own bodies to, then we are not free. I chose to jump out of planes in my spare time, that's a risk. My grandad wants to hug his grandkids. I don't see why he should be forced not to.

Jumping out of planes in your spare time doesn't risk anyone else though so that's not comparable.

Other bugs and viruses haven't brought the world to a standstill like COVID19 has.

My ‘normal Christmas’ involves only myself and my two kids. We all live together so zero increased risk from our ‘normal Christmas’.

I think each family needs to weigh up their individual circumstances.

We have followed the rules to the letter, but we both work and have kids in school, so we are potentially a risk to others.

That said, my 94 year old Nan is coming for Christmas. I wouldn't have initiated this but she phoned and pleaded to be allowed to come as normal. She's more than aware of the risks but hasnt seen us since before March. She's had enough of the isolation and HER reasoning of wanting to spend what could be her last Christmas (regardless of covid) with her loved ones is perfectly valid. At her stage of life she'd more concerned about enjoying her time left with family than being alone.

My risk assessment is to stay home. I’d rather miss out on a family time this year, with the prospect of being able to return to it next year.

Haven't read the full thread and there may be other people saying similar things but...

You're assuming my parents and grandparents are following the rules themselves! I'm not going to isolate for two weeks before going to see my 72 year old dad who has been on two scuba diving holidays this year, volunteers at the local church once a week, has been going to friends houses for dinner, gym twice a week and lives with my brother who is a police officer and comes and goes from his girlfriend's house, despite lockdown and other restrictions.

If he catches covid, the last person he's going to get it from is me.

YABU my parents are both for and healthy and in their sixties, DF has tried but DM still works they are also regular childcare so we can work in keyworker jobs so we see them every week and they care for our toddler, so Christmas Day is no additional risk