"Professional work clothes" are you f**king kidding me

[Wroxie]

Sorry this is more of a rant than a question because I know I'm not the one BU here.

So I'm a freelancer and about half my income comes from a single client. I do lots of workshops and training sessions on Zoom with them. This morning after a 2 hour workshop I was having a debrief with my main contact and he said 'just one more thing, it would be great if you could reflect the business wear standards we present during these sessions' and I was gobsmacked because - no word of a lie - HE AND I WERE WEARING THE SAME SHIRT. The exact same dark blue and white small-checked button down shirt with the top button undone. I also had on small earrings and a little pearl pendant on a fine chain and my hair was in a tidy bun. I would even venture to say that my shirt was ironed more nicely than his - he's generally sort of rumpled looking at the best of times.

When I was office-based, this was basically my uniform - button-down shirt, smart trousers, sometimes a jacket, nice brogues or maybe nice flats if it was ankle-baring weather. This is now what I wear every day in front of my computer at home except for the shoes. Yes, I even wear the smart work trousers because I often stand up to do something on my whiteboard and I can be seen from the knees up on camera.

The other women at this company (finance, if it matters) tend to wear solid, dark-colour tops with round necklines and maybe a chunky necklace, along with full makeup and blowdried hair. I don't wear makeup at all and my hair is natural (I'm mixed race - half Black, half European) and worn in a curly bob or in a bun depending on where I am in the wash-day cycle. So what it comes down to is that my natural face and hair and my choice of business wear would be ok if I were a man, but since I'm not... different standards. I almost wish I was an actual employee rather than a freelance consultant so I could make this into a WHOLE THING.

As it stands, I just said 'Tony mate you realise we're wearing the same shirt' and he blustered a bit and said something like 'well you just seemed a bit casual Friday today is all I mean' and I just let it drop.

Should I wear my 20+ year old Nirvana T-shirt next meeting yes or no?

@WhatATimeToBeAlive

nice reach by some PPs

Sorry what?

Out of interest, is it an American client? I’ve heard that some American corporates have v old fashioned views about what constitutes “smart” (although it generally applies to men as well).

Some of these suggested responses are v funny, but I find that in these situations simply ignoring what the person has said solves the problem 80% of the time. He probably won’t have the nerve to mention it again.

I find refining “hyper politeness” into “almost sarcasm” is an underappreciated art and very effective.

Oh indeed @bluebluezoo!

An art I find easier as I get older, and so enjoyable

@TatianaBis

A friend of mine is a BBC News correspondent with very curly hair. She is of mixed Hungarian Jewish and British descent.The BBC insist she iron it flat, which costs her a fortune.

At what point did curly hair become ‘unprofessional’?

Maybe 25 years ago? I remember going to department stores and being chased by people selling straighteners, it gave me the rage.

Just buy the cradle of filth top that says in big bold letters "jesus is a cunt" - bonus point is it also has a huge picture of a nun masturbating on the front 😬

But in all seriousness he's just being a twat.

Absolutely first class riposte @Wroxie.

The worst one I ever encountered was someone who thought it was appropriate to outlaw bare legs and insist on tights on the hottest day. Every single woman in the place ditched her tights on principle.

Incidentally, as an habitual leopard print and red lipstick wearer, I resemble that remark about taste @CSIblonde! I’ll have you know I’m very classy!

A friend of mine is a BBC News correspondent with very curly hair. She is of mixed Hungarian Jewish and British descent.The BBC insist she iron it flat, which costs her a fortune.

How can they possibly 'insist' on this? Surely she'd have them at tribunal so fast their arse would catch fire?

I'm white but I have very curly black hair - it's not long enough to tie up and if I straightened it, it would look weird because it's cut to get the curls to sit right IYSWIM.
I have been told by a couple of bosses in the past that it's scruffy. I did give the Paddington hard stare and then ignored them. I think they felt they could attack because I dressed extremely formally and in a very masculine style in that phase of my life.
It definitely became a 'thing' regarding the straight hair - look at 80s pictures and it's much more relaxed.

Use one of those beautifying apps. My sister uses one when we zoom and she looks so glam!

What a profoundly depressing comment. Why should OP have to "beautify" herself for a professional meeting?? She's there for her expertise, not to provide decoration FFS.

@IntermittentParps

A friend of mine is a BBC News correspondent with very curly hair. She is of mixed Hungarian Jewish and British descent.The BBC insist she iron it flat, which costs her a fortune.

How can they possibly 'insist' on this? Surely she'd have them at tribunal so fast their arse would catch fire?

By saying her hair looks tidier and more professional on camera when it’s straight.

See also Romilly Weeks who’s a friend of my sister- her hair is naturally super curly. Ironed flat for presenting.

I suspect he is commenting on a combination of your curly hair and no makeup sadly.

Unfortunately there is still an attitude that textured hair is unprofessional. It seems to get worse the more texture you have, especially with type 4 hair.

I hate the way a woman's appearance is still so scrutinised, especially in the workplace. No-one's ever commented on my DH's appearance at work but mine definitely has, from hair (type 2b/2c) to make-up to clothes. I was even criticised in one job for wearing a wrist splint following an injury as it didn't look professional.

So you were wearing a mans shirt not a women's blouse top? I think he wants you to be more feminine and probably the makeup thing thrown in too. I hate that when you think you can be yourself someone always has an issue. I'd carry on the same or power dress next time full black suit and fuck off massive clip board.

Shame the charity shops aren't open. I'd go and buy a hideous 80s blazer with shoulder pads and one of those blouses with a massive bow a-la Thatcher. Hopefully that would be formal enough for their standards.

'My solicitor would like a copy of your dress code'

Maybe he thought you were lowering The Tone.

Actually, does your contract with them say you need to dress in accordance with their company rules?

Christmas jumper time

thespark.company/products/sleigh-the-patriarchy-feminist-christmas-jumper?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_KvK2P6Q7QIVDOztCh0ZMQ2VEAQYASABEgLLdfD_BwE

Yeurgh. Just yeurgh.

I freelanced a lot in the past and I sometimes straighten my wavy hair, sometimes not and I have been told to "smarten myself up" and words to that effect, by which I understand they mean straighten your hair and wear make up (I am white and blond, but I do think it still has it roots in sexism and racism here).

I respond with a polite "OK, that's interesting, could you give me some examples perhaps as I'm not totally clear on what you're saying?" because that question is completely unanswerable without being even more sexist and the fekkers usually realise that they are digging themselves into a fekking great hole, while I sit smiling and nodding politely. Usually ends with them mumbling words to the effect of never mind, it's not really an issue.

By saying her hair looks tidier and more professional on camera when it’s straight.

My point is not what do they say, it's how can them saying it possibly not be unlawful, or at least very muddy legal waters?

'My solicitor would like a copy of your dress code' Ooooh, I like that!

Utter sexist bullshit! I would have been biting my tongue so hard. Maybe you could ask for a copy of their company dress code and then go back to TonyTheTwat and ask him to confirm what aspect of your work attire goes against said policy.

I actually think it’s likely that you’re appearance has been commented on by other senior staff and he’s been asked to feed it back when he next has a debrief with you.

If the other women are very glam then perhaps you look more casual. Obviously the men get away with it 😕

However obviously they are totally in the wrong. It’s sounds like you are clean and smart and tidy and elegent, and smart business dress should not equal tons of makeup.

Obviously it’s all kinds of wrong. But also aware you’re quite vulnerable being a free lancer. Maybe ask for a copy of the dress code and see what that looks like?

It’s not a “reach” to say it’s racist, WhatA

Just because something similar happened to you and you are white, doesn’t mean you get to decide there is no racism involved.

And being sarcastic about the very idea (“nice reach”) makes you sound ... racist

Start putting this at the end of your emails etc

Pronouns: They/Them

Bet it will never be raised again.

Which a sad indictment on our society.

What an arse he was being.

I think you handled it beautifully.

His behaviour could be classed as sexual harassment (definition is much broader than most people realise). Sexual harassment is unlawful (as opposed to illegal), and I’m not sure where any escalation of this could realistically go for you as a freelancer, even though in theory any one coming into contact with a company (as employee, customer, sub-contractor) should be protected from sexual harassment. But of course it doesn’t always play out this way even if raised as a full employee.

Not suggesting you go down this line, but wanted to name it as another reason why his behaviour was completely inappropriate, and that you are def NBU.

@WhatATimeToBeAlive

I'm white with red, curly hair and when I was in my 20s I was told to make my hair look professional by a female HR manager. He's not being racist (nice reach by some PPs), more like curlist.

Miss Temple, Miss Temple, what — what is that girl with curled hair? Red hair, ma'am, curled — curled all over?" And extending his cane he pointed to the awful object, his hand shaking as he did so.

"It is Julia Severn," replied Miss Temple, very quietly.

"Julia Severn, ma'am! And why has she, or any other, curled hair? Why, in defiance of every precept and principle of this house, does she conform to the world so openly — here in an evangelical, charitable establishment — as to wear her hair one mass of curls?"

"Julia's hair curls naturally," returned Miss Temple, still more quietly.

"Naturally! Yes, but we are not to conform to nature; I wish these girls to be the children of Grace: and why that abundance? I have again and again intimated that I desire the hair to be arranged closely, modestly, plainly. Miss Temple, that girl's hair must be cut off entirely; I will send a barber to-morrow."
Extract from Jane Eyre, 1847